More power, longer ranges, slugs, bullets, maybe pellets?

Forums PCP Airguns More power, longer ranges, slugs, bullets, maybe pellets?

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    L.Leon
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    Growing up in the 60s in one of the five boroughs of NYC. BB guns were still legal an fun if use safely in those more innocent days. Many years later I finally escaped the city and lived where I could shoot “real guns”. I got a CZ452 to shoot woodchucks at a local farm and orchard. That went well for many years, but more often than not I had to pass up shots. Because the .22 LR and even the .22 shorts were too much. Equipment, buildings, workers, etc. This led me to airguns, they could be deployed where I could not shoot before. Sub 70 yards very deadly. So it is hard for me to understand the push for more power and longer range shooting when it comes to airguns in the traditional sense. Those who hunt big game or target shoot at long range are exempted because they are pushing boundaries. But most shooters that come to airguns do so because they can shoot a lot at reduced, safer energy levels in smaller environments. And while I do understand the push for slugs for target shooters at long distances. I don’t see how shooting some slugs can be considered backyard friendly, unless you have a really big yard. I see that some shooters are posting impressive groups at 100 yards and beyond. But that’s to be expected as they are shooting pellets or slugs (.30 caliber) that are heavier than a 40 gr. .22 LR. And while I’m not knocking slugs, the trend  of “bigger, faster, louder, more lethal at extended range, etc.” As it applies to PCPs seems counterintuitive to why many went to the PCP platform in the first place. It seems like there is a literal race to see who can reinvent the .22 rimfire. Just some thoughts… 

    • This topic was modified 1 week ago by L.Leon.
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    2manyAirGunz
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    I have 40 yards from the deck to the fence in my backyard. Maybe I don't really need any power plenum after all. πŸ˜†

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    biohazardman
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    Well I think it is not to reinvent the .22 rim-fire but to improve upon it.  I don't have to clean my Impact to often now days and when I do there are no harsh chemicals involved. The Impact doesn't make much noise and I don't have to jump through many months worth of government hoops and spend hundreds of dollars to make it that way.  When shooting PCPs there are no shell casings to pick up.  If I were of the save the earth type of folk I would also say it does not pollute the environment.  I can shoot my 452, I have one too nice guns they are, at 100 yards and get half inch groups if I want to feed it $.20 a round ammo.  I can do the same with my .25 Impact for less than $.07 a shot.  I can also shoot paint cans at 200 yards with my Impact and NSA 33.5 slugs.  I think you will find that many of those shooting at long distances are doing so with the .22 caliber slugs that are under the 40gr .22 rim-fire ammo.  If I were to go pesting I could quietly shoot pellets inside a hundred yards and have the choice to shoot slugs out to 200 yards also with no report to speak of. 

    As far as shooting slugs in one's back yard, no matter the size, it just doesn't matter.  The noise which is minimal with both pellets and slugs is back yard friendly, if your moderated.  The only thing one has to worry about is the backstop and with Duct seal and rubber mulch so readily available that is a mute point as well.

    Still there is nothing like stuffing a handful of .22 shells in each pocket, throwing your rifle over your shoulder and heading off down some dirt road for a day of hunting or just plinking at everything that you see.  So both the PCP and rim-fire have a place in my life although because of the reasons mentioned earlier I shoot my PCP's far more often than my firearms these days.  Oh, and shooting full auto with my SK-19 is a blast I can't do that with a rim-fire without wading through so many months of red tape, and signing my life away, it just is not worth it. I haven't found the right slug for it yet though.  ;^)

    Some of my thoughts

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    biohazardman
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    😲2manyAirGunz

    I have 40 yards from the deck to the fence in my backyard. Maybe I don't really need any power plenum after all. πŸ˜†

    Don't need a power plenum! πŸ˜² Who are you trying to kid?  Have you talked this over with the addiction yet? βœ‹  It always tells me More PowerπŸ˜‰

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    2manyAirGunz
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    biohazardman

    2manyAirGunz

    I have 40 yards from the deck to the fence in my backyard. Maybe I don't really need any power plenum after all. πŸ˜†

    Don't need a power plenum! Who are you trying to kid?  Have you talked this over with the addiction yet?  ;^)  It always tells me More PowerπŸ‘

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Bingo!

     

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    Rodeo
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    Leon, I see your point.  I got in to air rifles for just those reasons.  I am interested in slugs but only for their resistance to wind drift.  I am kicking around the idea of trying the 17.5 Nielsen .22's in my R10.  My hesitation lies in not wanting to have to crank up the velocity and loose all shot count.  

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    JimNM
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    LEON, if it ain't right for you….don't do it.  If slugs don't fit your enjoyment profile, stick with shooting pellets.  If short range is where YOU shoot airguns, shoot it and leave long range to others.  Your reasons for getting into airguns are YOUR REASONS.  You may not hold anyone else responsible for YOUR reasons. 

    I have tinkered with slugs, but am not sold on them yet.  My guns are more accurate than I am as a shooter, so more accurate ammo is not going to help my shooting.

    Shoot'em good and enjoy your thing !

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    oldsparky
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    I have many firearms. Over the past 40 years I have had any firearm that scratched the itch. I, like many got a PCP because I could shoot safely and quietly in my backyard, oh and legally! I think for most that is the only reason they would consider buying a PCP. Until you get hooked airguns along with tanks and compressors are overpriced items. But once hooked its easy to want to push the envelope of safety and legality.

    A high percent of shooters shoot where they shouldn’t,  power or bore size. Once again I sound like a broken gong that makes too much noise. And some will just think that old guy needs to shut up. But If we don’t use. Common sense and police ourselves. The noisy neighbor will eventually get legislation shoved down our throats. Just because you can docent mean you should.

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    Vana2
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    @L.Leon

    I hear you and agree!

    Where I live I can shoot what I want – including centerfire rifles – I just really enjoy shooting my airguns. Because most of my shooting is within 50 yards I have never seen power or pellets as being a limiting factor – a .22 caliber 30 fpe PCP is lots for plinking, pesting and small game. I have a .25 PCP but only use it for raccoon sized pests when I don't want to discharge a rimfire. 

    For me, the attraction of more power and slugs is to learn about shooting at long ranges. Plinking spinners at 50 yards is fun but hardly a challenge when shooting a good rifle from a bench. Its when you start shooting at longer ranges that you really need to know your stuff and be able to dope the wind …I have a lot to learn. LOL!  

    MOA and small groups mean nothing to me, my challenge to myself is to see how far away I can consistently hit a 1 inch spinner. IMHO, a 1/2 inch group at 100 yards (impressive as that might be) doesn't mean much if it is not on the POA. When shooting pests, "close" doesn't count for much.

    So for me, it is not about fpe or extreme range, it is about precision and learning what my maximum effective range is. I plan to do some pigeon pesting and my permissions don't allow any powder burners so slugs are the way to go as the (surviving) pigeons have learned to keep their distance.

    …Just my personal perspective.

    Hank

     

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    steve123
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    It's all a catch22 thing for me. Sure the slug thing has some allure but… I'd be so pissed off if I bought all the essentials, like barrels, etc, to shoot slugs and ended up with a 2"-3" rifle at 100Y! I do have one PCP already that has a faster twist barrel in it, that I tried some slugs in, and the accuracy was disappointing. I could order other brands and weights of slugs but I guess going through the hassle and cost isn't worth it to me.

    Because I live out west and can be out in the FS in minutes shooting firearms I would rather buy a case of good quality 22rf ammo right now in life, than buy a compressor, a liner, and test slugs. Well I do have one really kick ass 22rf rifle that's paid for, and a bunch of other ones to choose from. 

    That could change once a proven PCP rifle system comes about that is solidly built like a higher quality firearm is, AND is made to shoot certain slugs designed for it producing an accuracy level, equal to, or exceeding, the best 22rf ammo, but it has to have substantially higher BC slugs than a 40gr 22rf bullet does, go about as fast, and "most importantly" have extremely low ES. 

    For me this has little to do with hunting and almost everything to do with pushing the limits of consistency at long range. Even higher quality 22rf ammo often has 30-40 fps ES over a 50 box of ammo.

    Eh, I'm pretty happy with my PCP's using pellets on my property, enjoy the low noise, lower power levels, and higher shot counts per fill. I just don't expect them to be any more than what they are and what they were designed to be.

    Plus right now I need to stock up on reloading components for my PB's so there's other more important places to spend money on currently.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by steve123.
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    L.Leon
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    JimNM

    LEON, if it ain't right for you….don't do it.  If slugs don't fit your enjoyment profile, stick with shooting pellets.  If short range is where YOU shoot airguns, shoot it and leave long range to others.  Your reasons for getting into airguns are YOUR REASONS.  You may not hold anyone else responsible for YOUR reasons. 

    I have tinkered with slugs, but am not sold on them yet.  My guns are more accurate than I am as a shooter, so more accurate ammo is not going to help my shooting.

    Shoot'em good and enjoy your thing !

    Jim, I know what “MY” reasons are or where for getting into PCPs. Just sharing some thoughts… I’m not condemning others who do it differently. As long as we shoot safely, it’s all good. 

    Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and opinions.

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    AirgunnerPCP
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    I get what you're saying. From a purely logical standpoint, all the development around long range, high power airguns seems sort of pointless when we have much better tools for the job. On the other hand, reaching those limits and beyond is fun! I love to tinker and it fascinates me to read about what others are doing with airguns.

    For myself, airguns fill a specific niche. For example, I can practice at reasonable ranges where you have to read the wind to hit your target with an airgun. Also, to me, airguns are almost therapeutic. I can get in some quiet trigger time after work and challenge my skills at home in my backyard. Plus they're pretty cheap to shoot on a per shot basis. I can put 500 shots downrange without spending an arm & a leg.

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    bandg
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    AirgunnerPCP

    I get what you're saying. From a purely logical standpoint, all the development around long range, high power airguns seems sort of pointless when we have much better tools for the job. On the other hand, reaching those limits and beyond is fun! I love to tinker and it fascinates me to read about what others are doing with airguns.

    For myself, airguns fill a specific niche. For example, I can practice at reasonable ranges where you have to read the wind to hit your target with an airgun. Also, to me, airguns are almost therapeutic. I can get in some quiet trigger time after work and challenge my skills at home in my backyard. Plus they're pretty cheap to shoot on a per shot basis. I can put 500 shots downrange without spending an arm & a leg.

    Same here.  I also understand the tinkering aspect and people can certainly shoot what they like or what they enjoy developing.  Much like mechanically tinkering with the gun itself, I guess.  Relates directly to another thread on the forum recently.  Many people don't want or need to shoot at the ranges where slugs can really help function.  So statements such as "once you shoot slugs you'll never go back" are off the mark, IMO.  Might be true for the sloganeer but not for everyone else.  Slugs aren't inherently superior, they're only different.  If their advantages are something you can use, by all means shoot them.  But they aren't the only option, or even a better option for everyone.  But they probably are better for some people.  Like so many things, all relative.

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by bandg.
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    Franklink
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    In my mind, slugs fall in the middle of rimfire and typical PCP fodder (skirted pellets). "In the middle" in the sense that they don't have as much retained energy nor as good of BCs as rimfires, but better than what a skirted pellet offers. It is almost like slugs are a completely new field of shooting…….

    Other than the handful of diehard airgunners (at least those in the online community that we hear from) that have been shooting slugs for years by casting or swaging their own, the big push for slugs was made primarily by FX. The FX youtube channels are where this craze really got mainstream in the industry and caused it to become a hot topic on the forums. Now, a new field of shooting usually would require at least another gun, and  FX is now even selling the slugs. So…….yes, slugs have somewhat better BC's than pellets, but the company whose employees are telling us (through their various youtube channels) all that we owe it to ourselves to try out slugs is the same company selling the guns that they say shoot slugs the best, AND selling the actual slugs. Marketing baby.

    So, are there ballistic gains to be made with slugs over pellets? Yes, but it's gonna cost ya (and still not get you to where a .22 rimfire shoots-you can even keep the .22 rimfire quiet by shooting the subsonic rounds, and STILL have better ballistics than a slug from an airgun). $2049.99 buys a decent rimfire and A LOT of decent ammo (that won't require sizing and slugging bores and replacing bolt orings and hunting down leaks and adjusting regulators and increasing plenums and refilling tanks and buying boobie bottle tanks cuz you got tired of refilling tanks).

    Ask yourself why you like shooting airguns (quiet, convenient, safe, economical-once you own the gun). For me and my way of enjoying the hobby, pellets fit the bill just fine. But for those who like to push the limits and don't mind going about it the hard way, more power to ya (literally). 

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by Franklink.
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    bandg
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    Franklink

    In my mind, slugs fall in the middle of rimfire and typical PCP fodder (skirted pellets). "In the middle" in the sense that they don't have as much retained energy nor as good of BCs as rimfires, but better than what a skirted pellet offers. It is almost like slugs are a completely new field of shooting…….

    Other than the handful of diehard airgunners (at least those in the online community that we hear from) that have been shooting slugs for years by casting or swaging their own, the big push for slugs was made primarily by FX. The FX youtube channels are where this craze really got mainstream in the industry and caused it to become a hot topic on the forums. Now, a new field of shooting usually would require at least another gun, and  FX is now even selling the slugs. So…….yes, slugs have somewhat better BC's than pellets, but the company whose employees are telling us (through their various youtube channels) all that we owe it to ourselves to try out slugs is the same company selling the guns that they say shoot slugs the best, AND selling the actual slugs. Marketing baby.

    So, are there ballistic gains to be made with slugs over pellets? Yes, but it's gonna cost ya (and still not get you to where a .22 rimfire shoots-you can even keep the .22 rimfire quiet by shooting the subsonic rounds, and STILL have better ballistics than a slug from an airgun). $2049.99 buys a decent rimfire and A LOT of decent ammo (that won't require sizing and slugging bores and replacing bolt orings and hunting down leaks and adjusting regulators and increasing plenums and refilling tanks and buying boobie bottle tanks cuz you got tired of refilling tanks).

    Ask yourself why you like shooting airguns (quiet, convenient, safe, economical-once you own the gun). For me and my way of enjoying the hobby, pellets fit the bill just fine. But for those who like to push the limits and don't mind going about it the hard way, more power to ya (literally). 

     

    Agree 100%.  I own a bunch of air guns and a whole lot of rimfires and centerfires.  The air guns are absolutely great for their purpose and certainly have their place, which seems to be changing by the minute these days.  I don't believe they will ever be a replacement for a good rimfire.  They might match velocity in one case or accuracy in another but the cost and complexity (and development effort) necessary to reach that level doesn't seem to compare at all to the relatively easy to attain rimfire potential for the average shooter who can shoot rimfires where they are.  If one can't easily shoot rimfires then the air guns are a great way to shoot where possible for even that.  But in that case, pellets may well be all that is needed for many.  Maybe not for all but for many, and I would believe for most.  Could be wrong.  The long range target shooters and/or hunters and pesters are possibly in other categories altogether from most air gun shooters, along with the dedicated tinkerer who just wants something different.  All just one opinion of course.

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    cea1960
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    I think I understand what you're saying.  I got back into airguns because I had to drive an hour to the farm to shoot my .22 RF.  Then ammo was hard to come by.  I can shoot 50 yards in my yard, but I still have neighbors next door to me.  I was seriously looking at a .25 Uragan when I realized I wouldn't be comfortable shooting it in my back yard where I do 99% of my shooting.  Because of this I decided not to sell my 15 fpe Brocock Contour and purchased an .177 HW100BP-K instead of the Uragan for backyard shooting and pesting.    

    If the farm has a pest problem that the airguns can't handle, the .22 RF can.   Now, if I lived out west, or in an area with larger game and open spaces, that Uragan would mine.

     

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    Franklink
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    cea1960

    I think I understand what you're saying.  I got back into airguns because I had to drive an hour to the farm to shoot my .22 RF.  Then ammo was hard to come by.  I can shoot 50 yards in my yard, but I still have neighbors next door to me.  I was seriously looking at a .25 Uragan when I realized I wouldn't be comfortable shooting it in my back yard where I do 99% of my shooting.  Because of this I decided not to sell my 15 fpe Brocock Contour and purchased an .177 HW100BP-K instead of the Uragan for backyard shooting and pesting.    

    If the farm has a pest problem that the airguns can't handle, the .22 RF can.   Now, if I lived out west, or in an area with larger game and open spaces, that Uragan would mine.

     

    Funny thing, I do live out west and my family farms and ranches. I've got to drive 6 blocks from my house to pest at the family feedlot and silage pits right on the edge of town. I've got permissions to hunt some irrigated fields that are infested by prairie dogs, not my families cuz my uncle is ruthless in his poisoning of them on our property. Those irrigated fields are on a different edge of town and have cattle and horses nearby and sometimes in the same field. I can drive three miles and be out on the family rangeland and shoot 1 mile plus. With all those pesting and long range opportunities, 99% of my shooting is pellets from airguns.  Quiet and safe. Even 20fpe pellets still carry some distance after going through both sides of the skull of a ground squirrel or pdog, as I often see them skipping across the ground and kicking up dust. 

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