Long distance hunting shots over 125 yards. Ethical or not?

So, most airguns have less power than a 22LR. I have always believed that more is better than less when hunting animals, even vermin. If I find I need to shoot a small mammal, i.e. woodchuck, skunk, possum, etc, at anything over 50 - 60 yds, I prefer a 22LR or 22 mag. Birds are much easier to kill and I would extend that range out to 100 yds with an airgun. You put a suppressor on a 22lr, and the noise is very similar to a suppressed airgun, plus is has better long range accuracy and power. A 22LR rifle even when purchasing a suppressor is still much less than the top airguns.

There is no way you can compare the nervous system of a mammal to an insect. Mammals feel pain and suffering and it is our duty to dispatch them as humanely as possible. 

My thoughts:

My gun passes through a woodchuck’s body as far as i have hit them.

A headshot is not required to dispatch an animal humanely. A chest shot is more than acceptable. If it isnt, than 99% of deer hunters are doing it all wrong.

this expands the kill zone to what it really is, about 5”x3”.



birds do not survive a 25 slug hit to anything solid. They just dont. Unless we are talking pigeon sized. They may require a follow up or barn cat if not struck properly.





These imperfect strikes happen to all of us. 

These imperfect strikes (that result in a wounded bird) happen as often at 50 to some as they do at 150 to others. Noone is questioning the 50 yard shooter.

Also, ethics comes into play differently for the folks that do this just for fun, and those of us who do it to protect their livestock. Not saying we dont have fun we do, but trust me its different when it matters to you personally. If you drive to your pesting spot, and dont have farming roots, you cant quite understand the difference.

thats my view. Not looking to dive deeper. This is a subject folks have their thoughts and thats that. But i figured id say my piece since i post these videos. And i do show misses also. Ill continue to provide the videos for those who enjoy them. And ill continue to shoot my absolute best for the animals sake while i protect my livelihood, and that of my local friends.

There is no way you can compare the nervous system of a mammal to an insect. Mammals feel pain and suffering and it is our duty to dispatch them as humanely as possible.

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So it's not OK to poison rats and mice but it's is OK to let an iguana suffer a slow death ?

Aloha guys,

CCut has brought up a great discussion and I see all of the comments about humane kills. For me I don't take long shots for the reason of I gotta retrieve what I shot, if I shoot a bird or mongoose and I don't pick it up then in a couple of days its going to smell, so shooting 50 yards or less is fine for me because I don't have to walk that far. A lot of you guys are right in saying that its a bragging or ego thing to just say "I shot something at 125, 150, 200, 250 yards" it reminds me of when I was younger and going to the gym to work out and you know there's always those guys that just have to yell & grunt to lift the heaviest weights, oh wait that was me...but this topic is very interesting to see all of the comments. 

Aloha,

Keone

Is it ethical to poison rats when the poison makes them bleed to death internally?

I say only take an ethical shot on game animals and kill vermin by any means.

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So tell us what's the difference between aniamls and vermin? They are all animals and every animal deserve a quick and clean kill. Just cause an animals is consider invasive by you doesn't mean you can kill them however you want as long as they as dead. Remember, human are the worst invasive species. Does that mean we should skin them alive as long as they bleed out and die?

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Bold, Italics added to point to the assertion with which I utterly disagree. We have as much right to be on this planet as any other creature. That goes for anywhere on this planet. Your concern for ethics is otherwise noted and commendable.

I've read the whole thread.

It seems to me that we can all agree we want to deliver a humane kill shot to our prey, whatever that prey might be. So it is easy enough to be civil about the discussion.

Here is my method for limiting the guilt I inevitably feel when I muff a shot on a living creature.

1) I know my weapon, whether it be a rifle, pistol, bow, slingshot or throwing stick.

2) I know my ability. I practice and rigidly document my abilities.

3) I establish limits BEFORE I go afield.

4) I absolutely observe those limits when I am in the field.

The two largest bucks I ever saw in the field; one was at 31 yards from my tree stand. I was bare bow hunting with a 45# Red Wing Hunter. Beautiful buck. He walked away and never crossed that line. The line was at 30 yards. The other buck was at about 22 yards. I was shooting number 1 buckshot in a break action 20 ga which had had six inches cut off the barrel. In other words it was a cylinder bore. I had previously determined how many pellets I could put in the kill zone and decided my maximum humane range was 20 yards. A friend who was hunting in a blind about a hundred yards from mine called me a liar when I told him that I had seen the buck and let him pass by because he never came inside the "circle of death". He did not believe me and swore I had fallen asleep. That was the prettiest hill country buck I ever saw in Texas.

The truth is that it is very likely I could have killed both of those bucks. When I was younger sometimes I thought how I should have taken one or the other shot. I'm old now. While I never put a buck in the record books (and that second one might have made it) I actually feel blessed to have seen those two fellows and I am pleased that they went on to father many more deer. I can say I did something that even the man in the record books might not have been able to do. I am happy about that.

Your kill range is uniquely you... If you have the right attitude and you know your weapon, your ability, establish limits when you are on the range and enforce those limits in the field, then you can call yourself an ethical hunter as far as I am concerned.

Guys.......i think “we” are all missing the point. The real point if we want to talk ethics about killing animals........

hunting seasons exist because of (in large part) and are based around breeding seasons.

Make a perfect twenty yard shot on that pigeon? Good job but the truth is it is highly possible there is a nest of young that suffers Because of it. 

Ever shoot a woodchuck that had larger teets than you are used to? Its because the warren is filled with hungry young that will now die because you made that great sixty yard shot.

ever kill a deer in the summer? I have, Under nuisance permit More than a Hundred of them on my friends organic crop farm. L The young dont make it without momma, and you are not allowed to shoot bucks bc the state wants the trophy hunters to buy tags

When u dont shoot enough birds at the dairy guess who poisons them? The USDA Talk about a rough death.

Im not trying to sound more knowledgeable or belittle anyones opinions, but my point is...

These are pests. No matter how you kill them, unless u do it during the dead of winter, you cause more pain than you realize. And if you dont? The usda does worse in your stead. 



Its not hunting Its a pest eradication effort

We're all just sharing our opinions....it's food for thought.

Deleted!

In town, out in the country, to me it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. A dairy man has much different needs than me living in town. His livlihood depends on keeping pests under control the best way he can. I shoot rimfire benchrest with a custom shop Anschutz at least two days a week using the USBR target, and at 70 am still a pretty good shot. My PCP rifles only get shot out to about 55 yards because I want to hit the squirrel or starling as good as possible. The farmer just wants it gone. Ethics can be a delicate subject, that`s for sure.

i love your topic Centercut!

many of these replies have shared my thoughts.

so bottom line FOR ME is this....... ethical kills are good. does it bother me when a poor hit is put on a pest bird or rodent? honestly... not really. BUT individuals that make comments and preach ethical kills have no business taking 100 plus yard shots with an air rifle. some people are amazing shooters but no ,matter how good they are, they cannot make clean kills 100% of the time at 100 yards. let alone much farther. too mich is out of the shooters control.

so as long as long range shooters dont preach ethical kills, its all good. 

@Centercut

Don’t overthink it bro. You have the skills and equipment to make it happen.

One of the first things I thought about when reading your post and your concerns, were hunters that hunt large game such as deer. I’ve heard many a tale from many a hunter about the length of time and the distance they went tracking their “kill”. I’m pretty sure a lot of the 250-300 pound deer don’t drop when shot.

So do they consider themselves “ethical hunters”? Dare ask one……

But to your question…. I must assume you would use your .25 to accomplish the shot at 125 yards. Looking at the ballistics on my Vulcan .25, the least powerful .25 I have, the target at that distance is going to take the shot at 22 fpe. I believe a .25 pellet with that level of POI energy is going to do enough damage and the wound channel large enough (even pass through the animal) it will experience very little if any suffering. To put that into perspective, that would be the same as shooting the animal at PBR with most .25 spring guns.

Now to your target size. You must take the size of the target into consideration. IMHO, IF you are able to hit something only an inch and a quarter across at 125-150 yards, I can’t imagine it scampering off injured. The pellet’s size is a FIFTH the size of the intended target. I mean, what part of the animal would you have to hit to not kill it almost instantly? That’s like hitting the brass end of a shotgun shell. Odds are not in your favor to begin with and if it were me, I’d want to try and close in and square up those odds a little better. The animal isn’t going to stay there and wait for you to take another shot anyway.

As an example, on last years’ annual prairie dog hunt, our shots were on average 100 yards. Some were much further. I took many shots in the 150 yards range that rolled the PD’s off the mound and they didn’t get back up. And, yes, prairie dogs are considerably larger than a ground squirrel too. Also, we’ve been practicing for this years’ hunt coming up in a few weeks with the metal PD poppers set out to 150 yards with consistent hits.

I believe the “ethical” question one should ask themselves, “Am I using a weapon that is capable of completing the task?” I’d personally not consider, using anything less than a .25 PCP to hunt our prairie dogs.

Anyone who hunts has made a shot he regrets. It takes a true hunter to admit it, learn from it, and move on.

 centercut, isnt that experience in line with my last post? Had you brained that one, and it dropped dead the fetuses would still be struggling to live for a time. Had you done it just a few days later they starve down the hole. Does where the shot hit really even matter anymore in these scenarios?



all im saying is, shot distance and even placement is the least of our worries in a true ethics discussion around shooting animals during birthing seasons.



I say lets face facts that we arent hunting, we are eradicating pests and act accordingly. Thats why we call it pesting.



If at the end of the day folks decide they are ok with orphaning young to die, but not an ocassional wounding shot on the adult, then i guess i cant wrap my head around that enough to talk it out logically.



Edited to add: 

centercut rereading your post i now see it as you are bringing to the table what i was also saying. If im putting words in your mouth or reading into your post too hard from my viewpoint please forgive me.

Yes, yes good shot placement within your comfort zone is good, less suffering for the animals. 97% of my shots are within 40' and my AA s510 is sighted in at about 50'. And I get precise shot placement, so a 75 yard shot I would not take because I do not know were the pellet would go. Up in Fairbanks we have small spruce trees not very tall so you can get close to the squirrels some times 20'.

I am not going into the "ethical" debate, IMO yes, 125+ yards are ethical as long as you shoot the right power and amo.

For me I would say @ 900fps at muzzle 0.22 cal pellets max distance

15gn = 50y

18gn = 75y

21gn = 100y

25gn = 120y

@ 940fps at muzzle 0.22 cal slugs max distance (not exact science just my opinion)

23gn = 150y

26gn = 175y

28gn = 200y

30gn = 250y

Of course you can stretch out does distances, but those are the distances I feel comfortable shoot at.

BDW @Centercut that shot with a (23gn and up) nsa or vk or ratsniper slug, I am pretty sure INSTANT KILL ... the expansive shock wave of a slug and the energy retention + the hollow point produce massive energy transfer and almost like a switch off almost any place in the body. Is really something else. I belive the shock wave and energy transfer is so big that does not matter if you miss the heart, it will stop anyway.

I would not (for sure) shoot the 18gn jsb over 100y (I have done it). This weekend I was with my 0.22 pellet 18gn and I spot a rabbit @110 yards... I know I can hit it moa or less @ that distance, but with a 18gn pellet did not feel right to shoot at (due past experiences like yours). On 0.22 and pellets, JSB Monster @ that distance. But at 170+ yards...no pellet, only slugs. That will give me a "kill shot" confidence. With pellets maybe with 30cal...just maybe. (btw the rabbit is still alive ) 

Is all about using the right tool for the job. (and of course the right skills)

Like a wise man once told me: use the right tool for the job, because if you have only a hammer, you will see everything as a nail, and that is just wrong.

I have taken too many deer to count.

I have four antelopes hanging on my den wall.

Neither of them were taken outside of 100 yards.

I have a .30-06 rifle made in Sweden that can shoot into 3 inches at 300 yards all day long (with someone else shooting it.).

I take short range shots because I do not want to drag the animal farther than that back to the truck.

I do not have an ATV and at soon to be 74 I still, still hunt on foot..

My friend has taken many more antelope than me and he has a 4x4 that he drives to where the animal was shot.

I don’t have one of those either...

Interesting discussion ETHICS in our society I’m glad the subject is even brought up. 

I don’t have any strong opinion on the ethics of hunting other then I am certainly guilty of making some far less then perfect shots on birds and animals.

I really don’t have much to add other then to say I’ve hit starlings and pigeons WITH SLUGS at rather reasonable distances and had them fly off to i’m sure die a slow death. 

How do I feel about it? I JUSTIFY IT IN MY OWN MIND . It’s obviously the reality of hunting and for that matter fishing. I can’t tell you I think it’s necessarily wrong because it’s part of the hunting experience and pest control. I hit a groundhog last night at about 80 yards with my 17 HMR hit him hard but he made it back to the hole. I’m not giving up groundhog hunting or pigeon hunting . I justify this by saying it’s the “life” of a pigeon or a groundhog. I really can’t tell you or more importantly myself if I think it’s wrong or right . Maybe I’m fooling myself. 

Humans suffer terribly in death too. I am more concerned about the unethical way we treat each other then about the ethics of hunting but I’ll admit freely that I don’t personally do much about that either. 

DEEP SUBJECT fellows glad that some are actually at least thinking about such things. 

There are plenty of animals wounded with BIG guns too although it can not be debated that impact energy is a big positive in making a clean kill. And we know about shot placement and range. I miss the close shots too sometimes.

Well, now that there's no more name-calling, I might add my 2¢ today.