I don’t think I need to see those, it will make me all paranoid again! 
Have a good one.
Stoti
Have a good one.
Stoti
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LiPo Batteries for the Red Wolf…Charging and Storage Safety.
- Thread starter stoti
- Start date
JFYI,
Just a non technical explanation of why lithium batteries vent/flame/explode in those rare occasions.
A thin membrane separates the chemicals inside the battery. When/if these chemicals get to 'mix' it starts the 'thermal run away'. Thermal runaway can end in venting/flames/explosion.
Many things can cause this mixing/thermal run away.
Over time sharp crystals normally form in these chemicals especially when over charged or over discharged. Or excess amperage is drawn for an extended period of time. Or battery just gets very old.
When these crystals grow' large enough they can/do penetrate the membrane letting chemicals leak internally/mix together.
Thus starting thermal run away, possibly causing venting or worst case, flames/explosion. Most times they just vent thru the venting valves on most quality batteries. Without vents on the battery case, the case acts like a mini pipe bomb.
Damaged/dented battery cases can be a harbinger of bad things to come. Overheated batteries also are prone to venting. Imo, Recycle all damaged/dented/overheated batteries asap.
Imo not the best idea to keep/store loads of them in an air tight sealed container, better to leave a way for venting to atmosphere , but still containing any flames the might vent out. I keep mine in an ammo box with the lid closed but not latched tight, hopefully containing any flames but allowing venting if needed.
I harvest good batteries from recycled battery packs. As a rule of thumb, any battery with less than 2 volts is probably junk/full of crystals, with a high internal resistance and not able to store a full 'tank of energy...
jmo
Just a non technical explanation of why lithium batteries vent/flame/explode in those rare occasions.
A thin membrane separates the chemicals inside the battery. When/if these chemicals get to 'mix' it starts the 'thermal run away'. Thermal runaway can end in venting/flames/explosion.
Many things can cause this mixing/thermal run away.
Over time sharp crystals normally form in these chemicals especially when over charged or over discharged. Or excess amperage is drawn for an extended period of time. Or battery just gets very old.
When these crystals grow' large enough they can/do penetrate the membrane letting chemicals leak internally/mix together.
Thus starting thermal run away, possibly causing venting or worst case, flames/explosion. Most times they just vent thru the venting valves on most quality batteries. Without vents on the battery case, the case acts like a mini pipe bomb.
Damaged/dented battery cases can be a harbinger of bad things to come. Overheated batteries also are prone to venting. Imo, Recycle all damaged/dented/overheated batteries asap.
Imo not the best idea to keep/store loads of them in an air tight sealed container, better to leave a way for venting to atmosphere , but still containing any flames the might vent out. I keep mine in an ammo box with the lid closed but not latched tight, hopefully containing any flames but allowing venting if needed.
I harvest good batteries from recycled battery packs. As a rule of thumb, any battery with less than 2 volts is probably junk/full of crystals, with a high internal resistance and not able to store a full 'tank of energy...
jmo
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Good info. Not sure I agree with the storage part, however. I feel better with mine in an ammo can precisely because of containing any flames. It would seem that any internal pressure spike would vent through the seal anyway, but I'm certainly not sure.
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Ya, not sure either.
Having seen one 18650 vent for quite a while(not just a spike) with some big pressure, makes me think twice about sealing them up air tight.
Having dozens in a sealed container seems like a problem maybe, but not sure if a tightly sealed closed ammo can could contain it or turn into a bomb..? Maybe pulling out the rubber seal on the lid might be enough. Or using WW2 era ammo cans without a airtight seal..? Or if its not a problem at all...?
jfyi, a older Tesla or Prius has thousands of 18650 lithium's in its battery pack. Once 1 goes into thermal runaway it overheats the battery next to it and they go into thermal runaway. Its a snowballing effect that can't be stopped or put out with normal fire fighting. Thats why you see crashed Tesla's on flat bed wrecker trucks being towed away still burning...
jmo
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I see a lot of incomplete information in this thread. First ALL Lithium batteries possess these dangers regardless of their specific chemistry. Out of all the Lithium chemistries LiPo is the most stable, but also possesses the least energy density. All Lithium batteries are very temperature sensitive. They should never be charged or used lower than 10 C or higher than 40 C. They should be stored at a cool temperature, but not cooler than 5 C, but then gently warmed before use. All Lithium batteries require the use of a Battery Management Controller (BMC). Never connect a Lithium battery directly to a an un-managed battery charger. Try to never discharge a Lithium battery below 40%. Never use a Lithium battery in an application that requires high current discharge. The average useful life of a LiPo battery is 5 years. Other Lithium chemistries can be much less. If you religiously follow these basic rules, the batteries will last much longer than the average 5 years. I own a Segway that I use all the time. I bought it in 2011 and now have over 4,000 miles on it. Segways have 2 battery packs of 72 volts each containing 92 18650 LiPo cells. They cost just short of $1500 each. They are sealed in their own case with their own firmware controlled BMC. I am still using the same OEM batteries it was delivered with and I see no measurable reduction in energy density (range per charge). I point this out because I follow the offered regimen above. I keep the Segway in a heated space.
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Hey Steve
I regularly shoot my Daystate Safari in temps that are in the 30-50 degree Farenheight range. Never shoot in 104 degrees or higher heat range. Are you saying I should not be using the gun in temps less than 50 degrees F? Also, I do store them in my garage and in the winter it does get down to less than 41 degrees F.
Can you re-confirm if I am wrong or OK in doing this? Reason I ask, is that I see nothing in my DS Safari owners manual that indicates this or perhaps I missed it.
Thanks, Tom
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Tom,
You have identified a real issue. Many of these end item manufacturers do not issue the appropriate warnings leaving the end users uninformed. I find it unconscionable. This is not just my opinion. Please if you have any doubts of the validity of what I have stated, please take the time and go to the various cell manufacturer's web sites and read these advisories yourself. First, all batteries are somewhat temperature sensitive, but Li batteries are especially sensitive. I first read this info in the Segway user manual, but I doubted the severity I read, so I did the research. It is out there and it is correct. As other folks have stated, you can store these slightly below 10C (50F) and you can use them in a cooler environment, but not without warming them up first. When in discharge use they will warm up a bit naturally. However I highly recommend you store, charge and use Li batteries in a controlled living space. If you are comfortable there, so will your batteries.
Another pet peeve of mine is the fact that the end product manufacturers that decide to employ Li batteries in their end product do not include them with an integral Battery Manager Controller (BMC). These supervise the charging, discharging and temperature of Li batteries and they are necessary for battery life, safety and durability.. However they add cost Buyer beware!
You have identified a real issue. Many of these end item manufacturers do not issue the appropriate warnings leaving the end users uninformed. I find it unconscionable. This is not just my opinion. Please if you have any doubts of the validity of what I have stated, please take the time and go to the various cell manufacturer's web sites and read these advisories yourself. First, all batteries are somewhat temperature sensitive, but Li batteries are especially sensitive. I first read this info in the Segway user manual, but I doubted the severity I read, so I did the research. It is out there and it is correct. As other folks have stated, you can store these slightly below 10C (50F) and you can use them in a cooler environment, but not without warming them up first. When in discharge use they will warm up a bit naturally. However I highly recommend you store, charge and use Li batteries in a controlled living space. If you are comfortable there, so will your batteries.
Another pet peeve of mine is the fact that the end product manufacturers that decide to employ Li batteries in their end product do not include them with an integral Battery Manager Controller (BMC). These supervise the charging, discharging and temperature of Li batteries and they are necessary for battery life, safety and durability.. However they add cost Buyer beware!
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These lipos are very forgiving as long as you don’t do anything stupid. Same tech as your cell phone How much time you spend worrying about that?
Additionally this is not a high demand situation that’s going to challenge the batteries. Many worry about conditioning their Lipo batteries because they’re thinking about flying drones where you need that peak power to have a good experience And battery degradation can be very obvious.
But for this, mainly we’re just looking at gradual changes in the number of shots you get before you have to recharge. I’d wager that you could just forget about storage charges and temperatures and just pretend it’s like your phone and it will be just fine.
Additionally this is not a high demand situation that’s going to challenge the batteries. Many worry about conditioning their Lipo batteries because they’re thinking about flying drones where you need that peak power to have a good experience And battery degradation can be very obvious.
But for this, mainly we’re just looking at gradual changes in the number of shots you get before you have to recharge. I’d wager that you could just forget about storage charges and temperatures and just pretend it’s like your phone and it will be just fine.
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Thanks guys.
Two contrary points of view, but I asked so I respect both. I guess I can ask Daystate my questions, but I’m going to try and use this thread to try and do what makes sense. Whatever that means??
Two contrary points of view, but I asked so I respect both. I guess I can ask Daystate my questions, but I’m going to try and use this thread to try and do what makes sense. Whatever that means??
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Tommyb,
I think you missed my point. What I stated is not my point of view. It is the point of view of the company that makes Li batteries. I think it was Panasonic and their 18650 cell. If you did not see these use advisories in Daystate's user manual, why would you expect to get anything different with a personal contact? Daystate is a battery manufacturer's customer too, just like you.Find out what company made the battery. Then go to their website, read their advisories on the cell type. If it is different than what is in Daystate's user manual, then contact Daystate and ask why. You do not have to guess. Do your own homework.
I think you missed my point. What I stated is not my point of view. It is the point of view of the company that makes Li batteries. I think it was Panasonic and their 18650 cell. If you did not see these use advisories in Daystate's user manual, why would you expect to get anything different with a personal contact? Daystate is a battery manufacturer's customer too, just like you.Find out what company made the battery. Then go to their website, read their advisories on the cell type. If it is different than what is in Daystate's user manual, then contact Daystate and ask why. You do not have to guess. Do your own homework.
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Steve thank’s for clarifying.
I’m not doubting your research either. It just seems odd to me anyway, that Daystate would sell an electronic gun, that the Manufacturer of the batteries used in their guns would have such temperature sensitivity.
Think about it. How many people would want a high end aid rifle whereby the battery used has such limitations with fairly moderate ( not cold) temps.
Forgot to add; yes I will research this after the Holiday next week .
I’m not doubting your research either. It just seems odd to me anyway, that Daystate would sell an electronic gun, that the Manufacturer of the batteries used in their guns would have such temperature sensitivity.
Think about it. How many people would want a high end aid rifle whereby the battery used has such limitations with fairly moderate ( not cold) temps.
Forgot to add; yes I will research this after the Holiday next week .
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