Kral Fires Up Their Copy Machines

Forums PCP Airguns Kral Fires Up Their Copy Machines

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    Deleted Account

    If these aren’t licensed copies, not cool IMHO… 

    http://kralav.com/en/category/havali-tufekler/puncher 

    Not cool that they’re copying the design and “look and feel” of the AirForce, FX Royale and Evanix almost exactly. I’ve been eyeing getting one of Travis’ gone over & modified Puncher Breaker Silent bullpups in .22 but this turn of events is now turning me off to the brand. 

    Look at the frame portion of the Puncher One. It’s practically a CAD copy of a Condor with some slight changes to the scope rail and moving the cocking slot to the side. The breech, hammer, trigger, and old style safety look they would be interchangeable with an AF gun. 

    If these aren’t licensed copies, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these manufacturers try to take legal action to block sales/import in countries with strong patent and copyright protection.  

    If someone in-the-know can chime in on this, please do.

     

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    Deja
    Spectator
    Spectator

    haha cool finally we can get a airforce rifle with some quality ;)

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    Tylerdefrese
    Participant
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    This seems more like an issue for the companies to sort out. To me, it just means that I can now buy a rifle that had been out of my price range that, according to reviews, shoots pretty well.

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    blackdiesel
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    Just because the outside looks similar doesn’t mean it’s a copy of the gun.  Internally, the parts could be totally different.  

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    Nutcracker
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    For under 500 bucks the  Puncher Mega Synthetic  might be worth trying. But the ones in USA have a partial shroud which makes an ugly rifle IMO,  The one on their site, shows full shroud, much much more pleasing & probably more efficient. 

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    Dairyboy
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    Yeah I’m not sure but I do know the one that looks like a Royale is also semi auto so no copy there. The others however who knows just how similar

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    JohnL57
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    ‘Clones’ are nothing new, the Chinese have cloned several spring-piston guns. Not saying I support copying, just that it’s nothing new.

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    Willie14228
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    Hate to say this but how many of you have complained about the 11mm rail on airforce? What about the cheek weld issue with the bottle?
    If a company comes in and improves a design is it a copy?

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    Deleted Account

    So it might be legal, and it isn’t new, just that I find it lazy and uninspired to copy other companies’ products so closely the resemblance is uncanny, and it turns me off the brand…

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    Willie14228
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    I don’t disagree, but I haven’t seen these models available in the U.S it might be the only way for that side of the world to get such designs (assumption) but maybe it will get companies in our side of the pond attention to the fact that they need to listen to the consumers feedback a little more. The day the Texan was released people were asking for a S.S version it is just now being brought out. The 11mm dovetail is a drag trying to find decent attachments like lights etc.
    I’m a left handed shooter and know for a fact they have had multiple requests for left hand options that is ignored.
    Also to got to admit it’s good for a manufacturer to get a wake up call every once and a while it helps get them out of stagnation and start making improvements of there own

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    Nutcracker
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    Exactly Willie14228,  nothing sharpens your skills or improves your product  like some competition.  A lot of companies  are lazy & only get motivated when someone else gets into their market.

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    Deleted Account

    I also find it hypocritical to criticize certain companies for failing to innovate and improve their “old designs” on the one hand, and defend a company that copies those old designs with minor cosmetic changes instead of innovating on their own and coming up with their own unique designs to establish their own brand.

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    Mousefart
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    Member

    Buy these guns, contribute to the death of your sport!

    History indicates that this isn’t about “competition”. It’s about predatory practice in a bid to ELIMINATE ALL COMPETITION that isn’t from China. 

    This has already happened in another hobby of mine. The Chinese pirate someone else’s product, undercutting the price because they have $2/day labor. The original companies lose money and the ability (funds) to innovate, then go bankrupt one by one. Finally, all that’s left is Chinese. 

    Its a story repated all all through the marketplace. I no longer make rationalizations for buying Chinese knockoffs, and have quit buying Chinese altogether out of principle and a desire to not see the Chinese own the entire world one day in the next 20 years or so. I finally figured out that I ignored the history lessons and supported these knockoff endeavors then I was part of the problem. 

    I’d rather be part of the solution. I will pay “extra” to protect the honest manufacturers from countries that don’t allow and even encourage their manufacturers to engage in this sort of behavior.

     

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    Willie14228
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    It’s those minor cosmetic details that I am talking about, have you looked at pricing for a stock for the Texan?
    It’s supposed to be a hunting tool not wall art, when is hunting season in the United States…. The winter right? Try holding a chunk of metal all day in 20º weather and see how long it takes you to start thinking about putting some clothing on that thing. Shoot it doesn’t even come with a place to mount a shoulder strap.
    Like I said it’s not that I don’t agree with your point, but it wasn’t until a bunch of aftermarket companies started making money fabricating an silencer for the Texan that they finely decided to come out with an S.S version.
    Don’t get me wrong I like my Texan but it does have some design flaws that while I was at the gun show in Dallas was brought up not just by me but many other owners, and in speaking with those owners then and many others after I’ve discovered they too have brought them up. My Texan is one of the First 100 to come off the production line (I checked) you put it beside a brand new one and they are the same…. there is the reason why copy right laws do have improvement clauses written in. I am not a lawyer and don’t even have a clue how it all works I only know it’s is there.
    Yes Sir! We do need to protect our U.S and other quality manufacturers I agree 100% but some of those manufacturers also need to get there collective heads out of their butts and start listening to the consumers a little more. If you are going to Charge for high quality and craftsmanship then you need to deliver it.

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    blackdiesel
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    “Mousefart”Buy these guns, contribute to the death of your sport!

    History indicates that this isn’t about “competition”. It’s about predatory practice in a bid to ELIMINATE ALL COMPETITION that isn’t from China. 

    This has already happened in another hobby of mine. The Chinese pirate someone else’s product, undercutting the price because they have $2/day labor. The original companies lose money and the ability (funds) to innovate, then go bankrupt one by one. Finally, all that’s left is Chinese. 

    Its a story repated all all through the marketplace. I no longer make rationalizations for buying Chinese knockoffs, and have quit buying Chinese altogether out of principle and a desire to not see the Chinese own the entire world one day in the next 20 years or so. I finally figured out that I ignored the history lessons and supported these knockoff endeavors then I was part of the problem. 

    I’d rather be part of the solution. I will pay “extra” to protect the honest manufacturers from countries that don’t allow and even encourage their manufacturers to engage in this sort of behavior.

     

    
What makes you think Kral is a Chinese company?  They are a Turkish company and have been in the firearms business for a long time.  They are relatively new to airguns but not some company that just popped up.  I think it takes competition to force companies from settling into a comfortable state where they ignore consumers and just roll out  lame guns because there are no options.

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    douger
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    I agree keeps them honest

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    Keith2324
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    Copying this from another forum. Not trying to stir the pot, just giving another point of view. Maybe some food for thought.

    Keith.

    “I am a patent lawyer. Not really trying to rebut OP, just pass along a little knowledge.

    First of all, there is nothing copyrightable about an airgun except maybe its printed manual or instruction sheets, i.e. words, or any artwork appearing on the package.

    Patents would be the most clearly appropriate form of protection for airguns or guns in general. But they must be applied for and applied for in each country in which the product is made or sold, if protection is desired in those countries. And there must be something novel and not obvious about the design, which is not a trivial standard.

    Because most guns are an assembly of features known from other designs, it is not clear that all or even most of them are patentable.

    There is something called a “design patent” that only protects the ornamental appearance of a product, not the way it works or functions. These can be problematic for utilitarian objects like guns because “functional features,” whose appearance is dictated by its function, are not protectable by design patent.

    Without a patent, there is no protection and copying others’ designs is perfectly legal, if not moral. The whole patent system is premised on TEMPORARY protection: once the patent expires, others are free to copy what is disclosed in the patent and this is regarded as a societal benefit. Competition through copying lowers prices (see, for example, the Chinese copies of various airgun designs whose patents, if any, would be long expired). Similarly, if no patent is obtained in the first place, the design is legally freely copied.

    So, TL;DR, if the manufacturers of the designs don’t hold patents, there isn’t anything legally wrong with what Kral has done here and no need for licenses.”

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    blackdiesel
    Participant
    Member

    Gibson and Fender guitars tried to sue some guitar makers for design copies.  Gibson wanted a patent for the single cut away Les Paul design and Fender wanted the double cutaway Stratocaster design.  The courts denied both their claims because guitars looked a certain way in order to be played so it was deemed a general design and they couldn’t patent it.  Maybe it’s the same with guns. 

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    Mousefart
    Participant
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    “blackdiesel”

    “Mousefart”Buy these guns, contribute to the death of your sport!

    History indicates that this isn’t about “competition”. It’s about predatory practice in a bid to ELIMINATE ALL COMPETITION that isn’t from China. 

    This has already happened in another hobby of mine. The Chinese pirate someone else’s product, undercutting the price because they have $2/day labor. The original companies lose money and the ability (funds) to innovate, then go bankrupt one by one. Finally, all that’s left is Chinese. 

    Its a story repated all all through the marketplace. I no longer make rationalizations for buying Chinese knockoffs, and have quit buying Chinese altogether out of principle and a desire to not see the Chinese own the entire world one day in the next 20 years or so. I finally figured out that I ignored the history lessons and supported these knockoff endeavors then I was part of the problem. 

    I’d rather be part of the solution. I will pay “extra” to protect the honest manufacturers from countries that don’t allow and even encourage their manufacturers to engage in this sort of behavior.

     

    
What makes you think Kral is a Chinese company?  They are a Turkish company and have been in the firearms business for a long time.  They are relatively new to airguns but not some company that just popped up.  I think it takes competition to force companies from settling into a comfortable state where they ignore consumers and just roll out  lame guns because there are no options.

    
Fair enough point. Replace Chine with Turkey where appropriate. Or dont. Basic premise remains then same- if you support knockoffs then you harm those who innovate. If a manufacturers is legit then why not innovate rather than copy and undercut?

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    Mousefart
    Participant
    Member

    “blackdiesel”

    “Mousefart”Buy these guns, contribute to the death of your sport!

    History indicates that this isn’t about “competition”. It’s about predatory practice in a bid to ELIMINATE ALL COMPETITION that isn’t from China. 

    This has already happened in another hobby of mine. The Chinese pirate someone else’s product, undercutting the price because they have $2/day labor. The original companies lose money and the ability (funds) to innovate, then go bankrupt one by one. Finally, all that’s left is Chinese. 

    Its a story repated all all through the marketplace. I no longer make rationalizations for buying Chinese knockoffs, and have quit buying Chinese altogether out of principle and a desire to not see the Chinese own the entire world one day in the next 20 years or so. I finally figured out that I ignored the history lessons and supported these knockoff endeavors then I was part of the problem. 

    I’d rather be part of the solution. I will pay “extra” to protect the honest manufacturers from countries that don’t allow and even encourage their manufacturers to engage in this sort of behavior.

     

    
What makes you think Kral is a Chinese company?  They are a Turkish company and have been in the firearms business for a long time.  They are relatively new to airguns but not some company that just popped up.  I think it takes competition to force companies from settling into a comfortable state where they ignore consumers and just roll out  lame guns because there are no options.

    
Fair enough point. Replace China with Turkey where appropriate. Or dont. I dont care, because the basic premise remains then same- if you support knockoffs then you harm those who innovate. If a manufacturer is legit then reward them for innovation rather than pirating/copying/undercutting.

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