Is the (Neilsen) slug going to be the new (JSB) diabolo?

Forums Pellets, Projectiles, Slugs, & Ammo Is the (Neilsen) slug going to be the new (JSB) diabolo?

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    fe7565
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    What do you see for the future of slugs?   I know little about slugs except that their BC is much higher than any diabolo pellet's…thus will fly flatter and possibly longer. With slugs "coming to age" and FX making barrels that supposed to match optimal slug twist-rates, are slugs going to take over airguning?  Are we blurring the line between High Pressure Air and powder-burner propelled projectiles?    What could make slugs superior to diabolo? Is manufacturing quality – like with JSB's diabolos-  essential for slugs to perform better than diabolos?  Is Neilsen the only company positioned to dominate the market like JSB does with diabolo?

    • This topic was modified 3 months ago by a Moderator.
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    Rich7777
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    I think airguns will experience a natural progression into slugs. However, there are a couple limiting factors. At this point in time, few slugs are economically competitive with pellets. 
    NSA – 2 sample packs + S&H resulted in 200 rounds at $0.2248 per round.
    Hunter Supply purchase of 200 rounds resulted in $0.0903 per round. 
    H&N Grizzly – My last order of Grizzly’s resulted in $0.05 per round. 

    For comparison,
    JSBs – My last purchase of JSBs resulted in $0.0382 per round.
    I can shoot powder burners like a 22 LR at $0.0537 per round.

    Another limiting factor is not many airguns handle slugs well. More manufactures will have to focus on selling slug airguns. It’s possible FX efforts toward slugs will drive the market, but it remains to be seen if FX can successfully create accurate slug barrel liners or if those liners will last.  

    Regarding blurred lines between airguns and powder burners, check out the muzzle FPE generated from powder burners.
    Rim fire – http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rimfire-rifles.html
    Center fire – http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-cartridges-ballistics.html
    Handgun – http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.handgun-ballistics.html

    The most powerful PCPs on the market are the Seneca Dragon Claw 50 cal and Umarex Hammer 50 cal. Both generating around 700 FPE.

    EDIT: Bad info (700 FPE is roughly equivalent to one of the lowest powered powder burner rounds made (a 22 short). )
     

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    Saltlake58
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    While I agree with most of what is said, check your numbers on the .22 short.  The link you provided shows a 22 short at 700 fps, and about 32 fpe.  The .22 lr Mini-Mag is 127 fpe.  

    ​Point though, a standard 30-30 is 2649 fpe.  Powder burners will keep the high power crown for a long time.  

    ​For now, I’ll stick with pellets, though I will work with slugs as they improve.  The thought of getting away from the Diabolo, drag stabilized pellet would be really nice.

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    Rich7777
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    “The link you provided shows a 22 short at 700 fps, and about 32 fpe.  ” 
    I’m allowed a DOH moment, right?  :)
     

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    Saltlake58
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    Absolutely!  Not like I’ve never made a mistake, right?  Just ask my boss.

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    Beach-gunner
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    I agree with and went down same path as Rich.  Why pay 4x for a projectile that does not give 4x the performance.  I mean if we were shooting small game and birds at 250 yds and needed 50+ FPE, then maybe there would be a market.  I lined up on a starling at 165 yds with my .22 Tiapan Veteran this morning, SWFA 3×15 and on 15 power the hold was very difficult.  I decided to turn the elevation turret 108 clicks and held minimuly for wind.  Shot was terminal, but target in my reticle was difficult to hold.  I can’t imagine trying to hold on a bird or squirrel at 250 yds, shooting a slug that retains enough energy to be a terminal shot.  If that was required I would use a 22 PB.

    Just my thoughts on the subject.

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    fe7565
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    Great thoughts…     I should have qualified that the powder-burner comparison is more along the lines of lower caliber and slower bullets (i.e. .22, etc). And more along the trajectory line of a slug and a firearm bullet becoming closer to each other vs. the diabolo which has inherent BC limitations because of the shape.  I would  not be surprised if at some point in the near future target competitions will have separate slug categories from diabolos. 

    I did not think about the price of the slugs and surely that is a big factor in limiting how many will use them on a regular basis. Until competition kicks in and prices lower may not be much interest.  FX with their slug-liners may change this game….but I think they need to put as much research into slugs as into the liner.

    I am not a hunter, but I would think that a slug retains a lot more energy (maybe 2-3 times more) than a pellet at the same distances because of the 2-3 times higher BC.  With a much flatter trajectory slugs could be a viable option upto 200 yards as long as they retain enough energy for a kill.  I need to check in Chairgun by changing a diabolo’s BC (approx 0.030) to the BC of a slug (I think around 1.2)  how much it drops and what energy it retains at further distances.

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    Saltlake58
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    I think slugs will have a place relatively soon, but whether they completely replace pellets, we’ll see.

    If I were shooting competition, like the Extreme Bench Rest, and I had slugs working better than pellets, heavier, better BC, and bucked the wind better, I’d pay  4 time as much for the slugs for the opportunity to win.(if, of course, slugs were allowed which I believe most competitions do not allow slugs yet)

    If I were hunting and the slug provided much better accuracy and energy transfer to improve the speed of the kill, I’d pay more for slugs.

    For general plinking and shooting, maybe not.  I’ll stick with my favorite pellet brand for the economy and pleasure knowing that once you buy the gun and whatever support system (like tanks for PCP), it’s a cheap hobby.  

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    Rich7777
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    “Saltlake58”I think slugs will have a place relatively soon, but whether they completely replace pellets, we’ll see.
    If I were shooting competition, like the Extreme Bench Rest, and I had slugs working better than pellets, heavier, better BC, and bucked the wind better, I’d pay  4 time as much for the slugs for the opportunity to win.(if, of course, slugs were allowed which I believe most competitions do not allow slugs yet)
    If I were hunting and the slug provided much better accuracy and energy transfer to improve the speed of the kill, I’d pay more for slugs.
    For general plinking and shooting, maybe not.  I’ll stick with my favorite pellet brand for the economy and pleasure knowing that once you buy the gun and whatever support system (like tanks for PCP), it’s a cheap hobby.  

    
+1
    well said

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    jps2486
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    In my tests, slugs are good, but for accuracy, the diabolo pellets are still the winner.  I found that the heavier slugs shoot better, but, of course, slower.  Further development needs to be done.  Barrels designed for slug use may be in order.

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    Swami
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    Has anyone run slugs in a LW polygonal barrel?

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    Saltlake58
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    “jps2486”In my tests, slugs are good, but for accuracy, the diabolo pellets are still the winner.  I found that the heavier slugs shoot better, but, of course, slower.  Further development needs to be done.  Barrels designed for slug use may be in order.

    
Gotta agree with you.  I really do thing slugs will play heavily in the future of airgunning, but, we are in the early days of slugs and airguns.  I’m confident that over time, slugs will perform better, as airguns are designed to use them.  Right now, we are using barrels designed for pellets to fire slugs.  I don’t think we’ll see the full potential of slugs until we have slug barrels designed for slugs.  Those barrels will probably shoot pellets like garbage, but be wonderful for slugs.  

    For now, the pellet is the king of the accuracy hill, but in time, slugs may very well win the battle. Further development of both slugs and barrels is definitely in order.

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    LDP
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    Slugs will never be superior to diabolo in my opinion. If I want to shoot slugs/bullets I will grab one of my firearms. I shoot pellet rifles for a reason and that reason is the pellets reduced energy and the fact it bleeds off that energy very quickly compared to bullets. If I cant get it done with a pellet then I need my firearm for that particular job. 

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    cootertwo
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    Very interesting indeed! Makes me want to go searching for pellet origin, AGAIN. I spent awhile mostly on wiki comparing the diablo pellet, and the badminton birdie. Wondering which came first. Chicken or egg thing. Then there’s the theory of how the skirt of the diablo is also designed to help seal while in the bore, then stabilize while in flight. BUT then also causing DRAG. I love powder burners, but no place to shoot anymore, so I have my “air guns” to plink away in my 1 acre back yard. I really prefer that “THUMP” of a slug, as to that slap of a pellet, and would like at least one of my 22 cal to be a highly tuned slug shooter for sure. My Bulldog, or Texan have no problem at all with slugs! My backstop does though! Also kinda strange in a way, how this topic compares to the shot gun, and when slugs for them became more and more popular.

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    SDellinger
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    What slug or bullet has a BC of 1.2 ?

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    fe7565
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    Info from these posts below.  The BC of 25 cal slugs was measured by Labradar as 0.092-0.094.  It’s almost 2.5 times that of the .25 JSBs  25.39gr (0.038 BC) and 2 times that of the 33.95gr  JSB heavies (0.046 BC). 
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    http://https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=105547.20

    https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/my-nielsen-slugs-have-arrived/
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    I plugged the slug’s 0.92 BC in Chairgun and compared it with the similar weight (33.95gr) and same .25 caliber JSB MKII’s  with a 0.046 BC.

    Here is the setup for 100 yards:

    Slug:                33.95gr,/   25cal  /  BC 0.092     /   880fps  /  muzzle energy = 58.37 ft/lbs
    JSB Heavy:     33.95gr./    25cal /  BC 0/046    /    880fps   /  muzzle energy = 58.37 ft/lbs
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    Cannot enlarge the pictures, but if you click on them you can get a larger view.
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    First comparison was 100 yards single-zero (barrel held parallel to the ground and measures pellet drop at 100 yards).
     

    Slug:    dropped 24.63in at 100 yards, fired parallel to ground / retained energy 100 yards:  42.90 ft/lbs  (73.51% retained)
    JSB:     dropped 27.42in at 100 yards, fired parallel to ground / retained energy 100 yards:  32.73 ft/lbs  (56.06% retained)

    View post on imgur.com

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    Next, I selected “optimum zero” for both which supposed to assure the best trajectory to 100 yards without major scope adjustments:

    Slug:    dropped 18.33in at 100 yards
    JSB:     dropped 21.98in at 100 yards

    View post on imgur.com


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    Finally, zero-d at 100 yards to see how flat the trajectory is:

    Slug:     highest point of trajectory arc:  6.6 in
    JSB:     highest point of trajectory arc:  7.67 in

    View post on imgur.com


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    Overall, the energy retained by the slug is much better at 100 yards, but both trajectories surprisingly (for me) weren’t as much different as I expected. 

     

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    fe7565
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    “SDellinger”What slug or bullet has a BC of 1.2 ?

    
  My mistake. The slug is in the 0.092 range.  I was off by a yard :)

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    fe7565
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    double post

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    Saltlake58
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    No doubt the slugs have a better BC.  Pellets aerodynamics are terrible, being drag stabilized.  I believe we are on the forefront of a fundamental change to air rifles.  While pellets have carried us to this point, and are relatively inexpensive, slugs have great potential but need work.  Pellets can be incredible accurate up to 100  yards or more.  Perhaps, slugs can help us stretch even more!

    This is going to be fun to watch over the next couple years.

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    Bob_O
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    In Matt Dubber’s latest video, he said he was on his way to FX Airguns to help finalize testing or development of ST X barrel liners for slugs.  Or something like that.

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