I'm calling BullS×÷T on Artillery Hold

Forums Springers, Pumpers, C02, & Replicas I'm calling BullS×÷T on Artillery Hold

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    Crutcherro1
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    Nice instructional video. I’m going to try copying your technique with my old fly fishing wading staff. I’m a terrible off hand shot. I think it should really help me. Thanks.

    Crutch

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    TheReprobate
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    Greetings Brethren! 

    I have the Wal-Mart version of the Gamo Whisper series called the Shadow Whisper, oooh, aaaah! Any way i'm using the great old stand-by pellet; the Crosman Premier Hollow-Point 7.9 grain at a range of 10 yards. This gun seems to like them. Ten yards, i know, i know, not much of a range but hear me out. I promptly did away with the crap 4×32 scope that came with the gun and put on CenterPoint 3-9×40 optics. Massive improvement because now I'm able to very accurately place my pellets everywhere but where I wanted them! Like a squirrel on Red Bull this gun simply splangs around too much. "I cut my teeth on airguns," thought I, "what the hell is wrong with this thing? This whole experience taught me that I was right about break barrel air rifles and the whole thing was an exercise in futility; You simply cannot accurately shoot a break barrel because the barrel will not seat in the same place every time and the spring action makes it way too high-strung – erego inaccurate waste of my time and duckets. I just knew it had to be the rifle because an old friend of mine and I would go out shooting birds on my grandparents land and with my old Crosman Classic 2100 multi-pump rifle I used to out-shoot him with the open sights from distances of 35 to 70 yards while he used .22 bird shot. I consistently outshot him three, four, and five to one. It infuriated him no end. I was given the gun at 9 years of age and continued shooting it until around age 18. I still have that rifle for one reason; i could hit anything in its range from any stance. I was taught to bring the gun in tight,against my shoulder, get a good,solid cheek weld, caress the foregrip allowing for the recoil of the gun during firing and not to jerk the trigger but squeeze it gently and maintain your finger position until after the shot. But above all I was to always allow my body to absorb the recoil so that I could maintain proper follow through after the shot and stay on target. This held me in good stead through my airgunning days and later through the use of real firearms and I became a very respectable shot. I have an old Marlin 39A lever action .22 with the micro-groove barrel and I was placing groupings in a space the size of a golf ball at 100 yards with open sights. So, clearly, obviously, as painfully manifest as the nose on my face, the problem HAS to be the rifle, correct?. Well, yes. And, well… no. As I was doing some research into finding a more accurate seventeen caliber break barrel rifle when I came across an article and video about that Artillery Hold and thought to myself, "self, before you sell that P.O.S. on ebay and try to regain some of the money you so poorly spent on such a conspicuously bad gun let's give this thing one more chance to prove you right about break barrels" And so I did. The process took about three hours. The very first thing that happened was the rifle was knocked over in my basement by one of our cats. She was walking around in and out of my legs, as is a cats wont, and decided to do the same to the rifle, With the kind of flirty playfulness only a cat can possess over toppled the rifle. It landed quite squarely optics first. So I had to re-zero everything and since I was experimenting with a wholly foreign means of holding a gun it took me a somewhat longer than normal. By the time I was done I was most comfortable with a couple of different positions and was holding the gun with the thumb of my trigger hand up against the side of the stock rather than wrapped around the ambidextrous thumbhole. I was shooting comfortably with the foregrip resting loosely on the palm of my other hand or the barrel resting loosely on the sandbag and able to move freely with recoil. My cheek weld was only as tight as necessary to gain proper focus and eye relief through the optics and the rubber butt plate was striking just against my sweater so that it and my shirt would absorb the recoil rather than my shoulder and the rubber butt-plate. The rifle was, essentially, allowed to recoil like an an artillery piece from the first world war. I found myself becoming more and more hopeful as I dialed in my optics and here are the final results; 

    You can clearly see one hole off to shooters right from an errant shot due to the cat giving me an unexpected calf rub. The hole you see in the red bullseye was a three round group hole-in-hole.

    In summation; the recoil of this rifle is violent, the vibration is tectonic and the jump from the piston slamming home is nothing short of Alexander Peroni's launch at Monza last year. .But due to the Artillery Hold on my break barrel springer I am just as accurate today as I was with a pump pneumatic 30 years ago. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    bandg
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    Jonnes

    It's more so with springers compared to PCP's for instance, because of the violent internal movement of a spring and piston that slams and bounces against the breech. It isn't the ONLY way to get consistency, I fully agree, but this simple guideline helps newcomers to the airgun world with learning to shoot accurate with a spring of gas ram powered air rifle. Placing it on a shooting bag works also great, or a rifle rest, just as long as you do it the same way with each shot. That's what I'm trying to say @Cuzur. ;) 

    IMO this simply illustrates the need for consistency but any improvement could also be related greatly to focus and practice.  As has been noted above, most people can shoot more accurately with a .22 rimfire or a PCP.  Why?  Probably not inherent potential accuracy differences but more related to the much shorter time between manipulating the trigger and projectile exiting the barrel in the rimfire or PCP.  Rimfire has only a light spring and light firing pin to move (lock time) and that moves the gun less.  PCP has somewhat heavier hammer spring and a relatively heavy hammer.  That could move the gun more but it is still a small part of the overall gun weight.  Springers have a heavy spring and heavy piston that can move the gun even more, and the pellet stays in the barrel fractionally longer during any such movement (rimfire and PCP velocity often a bit higher) so the shot could be affected more.  Seems that is why good smooth trigger control (and a light crisp trigger) is good for accuracy-the shooter moves the entire gun less in the much shorter time between trigger pull and projectile exiting barrel.  

    The Walther guns are often noted as quite accurate, even though the triggers are "inferior" to their direct competitors, the HW97 and TX200.  Mine certainly are very accurate, commonly shooting bugholes out to 30 yards in calm conditions.  And at least in this one personal case usually a little more accurate than my HW97.  Why?  Is the barrel better?  Probably not.  The trigger certainly isn't better (though it can be made very close).  So what is the differentiating factor?  I believe it is what is often noted physically about the Walthers-they are relatively heavy.   Not good to tote around all day but very good for remaining more stable during all that springer mechanical movement.  And mine vary very little from offhand to rested.  I believe because of the weight.  All IMO, of course and FWIW.

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    Doxiedaddy
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    Funny this topic arose. I recently just got into air gunning last month. I bought a SIG ASP20, Diana 48 & Weihrauch HW98 rifles all in .22 cal. I topped them all with Vortex 2-7x35mm rimfire scopes and BKL mounts. Yes,  I had done my homework prior to my purshases so I knew what I wanted. I’m the type of dude that goes all in when I decide to persue a new hobby…..”go big or go home” Is my motto 😂 Being new to air gunning ( but not to shooting) I had read the many reports and “ how-to’s” on the artillery hold and how it’s the most accurate way to shoot a springer….especially magnum springers (which all three of mine are btw). Me being me, I first shot for groups at 15 yards on a bench. I held and shot all three rifles the same exact way I have always shot my power burners without any thought about what I was doing. Guess what…..all three rifles printed beautiful, tight cloverleaf clusters. I then zeroed my scopes at 25 yards then shot  all of them 4 shots each….again I was rewarded with sub 3/4” groups. I did nothing different than if I was shooting my 30-06, 270, 300Win, 223, etc. I think the artillery hold is a viable “ thing” yes, but I didn’t even try to do it. I just shot like I have for the past 35 years of my life and the results were good. 👍

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    Doxiedaddy
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    Garththomas
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    I use variations of artillery holds on all springers, never shot one that didnt benefit from it. If its not working for you then you need to modify some part of your hold but the basic technique is the same.

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    Cherokee140
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    JoeWayneRhea

    I think my main problem is I've gotten spoiled to guns that don't need a magic combination to unlock . Just point at the center , and watch a hole appear . Best technique teacher for me is shooting longer distances ! Slight and I mean SLIGHT changes show up on down range . I know it's not the case …..But on really accurate springers it feels like the pellets gone before any jump has occurred. On the bad shooting ones it feels like somebody shoved an industrial size vibrator up my butt and flipped the switch when it goes off . And only then do I see a pellet hole slap into a random place downrange

    Yup….you hit it on the head with a hammer…..you are spoiled to guns that are much more easy to shoot and require much less skill on the part of the shooter.

    Some people have that skill, others do not, and if you do not there is no point in lashing out at a technique you clearly do not understand or have what it appears bothered to learn for yourself….but that might go back to not everyone can do everything they want to do.

    No point in using a good gun as a door stop, with the production process today there are very few "bad guns" out there more likely shooters that don't know proper technique…..and it is all about that skill.  If you are shooting your 1022 at pop cans in the back yard you are using a very different technique then you are when shooting 600 yards off hand at a high power match.  Sorry for the powder  references.

     

    Perhaps a different thread title would have gotten you a different kind of response from me.

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    GoldenStateAIRGUNer
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    When I first bought my Sig ASP20 I had problems getting consistent groups at 10M. I then watched the video on the Artillery Hold put out by Tom Gaylord. I also read the series of articles Tom wrote on the ASP20. Bottom line, I can now drive a pellet down a pellet hole 6 out of 10 times at 10M practicing all that I learned. 

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    bandg
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    GoldenStateAIRGUNer

    When I first bought my Sig ASP20 I had problems getting consistent groups at 10M. I then watched the video on the Artillery Hold put out by Tom Gaylord. I also read the series of articles Tom wrote on the ASP20. Bottom line, I can now drive a pellet down a pellet hole 6 out of 10 times at 10M practicing all that I learned. 

    Practicing.  That could be the key, not the hold.  Many say they cannot tell that the "artillery hold" helps, others say those people are wrong and it absolutely helps.  I bet the answer is somewhere in the middle and probably related more to the individual gun than the method.  IMO, of course.

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    Cherokee140
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    bandg

    GoldenStateAIRGUNer

    When I first bought my Sig ASP20 I had problems getting consistent groups at 10M. I then watched the video on the Artillery Hold put out by Tom Gaylord. I also read the series of articles Tom wrote on the ASP20. Bottom line, I can now drive a pellet down a pellet hole 6 out of 10 times at 10M practicing all that I learned. 

    Practicing.  That could be the key, not the hold.  Many say they cannot tell that the "artillery hold" helps, others say those people are wrong and it absolutely helps.  I bet the answer is somewhere in the middle and probably related more to the individual gun than the method.  IMO, of course.

    Keep practicing wrong with bad technique…..will you ever get better….perhaps.  If you do follow established formulas to put holes in the correct place, would you be better with the same time put in…..me thinks so.

    Bottom line…..I would bet 95% or more of the shooters in airguns….."adult" airguns came over from firearms….and the same technique that you use on your 30-30 will not work on a springer.  Those same people toss them aside to use as door stops, grab a PCP and WOW that shoots just like a good ole 3006 and I don't have to learn nothin new….sold…time to bad mouth springers of all kinds….I will be a little nicer to the german versions because everything german is good…but that chinese and spanish stuff…that is all junk.

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    bandg
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    That's one opinion, FWIW.  Shoot how you like and others will do the same.  I don't need to use the method with my springers to have them perform accurately, and they include a Diana 460 and a Hatsan 125, neither of which is considered particularly easy to shoot.  

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    bowwild
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    I shoot all my rifles the same way; pcp, springer, and powder burners the same way. I don’ even think about it.  Squirrels would fear me if they could, but I have no medals for killing paper. 

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    GoldenStateAIRGUNer
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    bandg

    GoldenStateAIRGUNer

    When I first bought my Sig ASP20 I had problems getting consistent groups at 10M. I then watched the video on the Artillery Hold put out by Tom Gaylord. I also read the series of articles Tom wrote on the ASP20. Bottom line, I can now drive a pellet down a pellet hole 6 out of 10 times at 10M practicing all that I learned. 

    Practicing.  That could be the key, not the hold.  Many say they cannot tell that the "artillery hold" helps, others say those people are wrong and it absolutely helps.  I bet the answer is somewhere in the middle and probably related more to the individual gun than the method.  IMO, of course.

    If it were a result of just practicing then how do you explain the fact that my changes in accuracy occured in one 10 shot shooting session?  I experienced lousy groups – watched the video – grabbed my Sig – and low and behold a night and day difference!  Of course practice improves any activity you're involved in but hold is important! 

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    GoldenStateAIRGUNer
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    Cherokee140

    bandg

    GoldenStateAIRGUNer

    When I first bought my Sig ASP20 I had problems getting consistent groups at 10M. I then watched the video on the Artillery Hold put out by Tom Gaylord. I also read the series of articles Tom wrote on the ASP20. Bottom line, I can now drive a pellet down a pellet hole 6 out of 10 times at 10M practicing all that I learned. 

    Practicing.  That could be the key, not the hold.  Many say they cannot tell that the "artillery hold" helps, others say those people are wrong and it absolutely helps.  I bet the answer is somewhere in the middle and probably related more to the individual gun than the method.  IMO, of course.

    Keep practicing wrong with bad technique…..will you ever get better….perhaps.  If you do follow established formulas to put holes in the correct place, would you be better with the same time put in…..me thinks so.

    Bottom line…..I would bet 95% or more of the shooters in airguns….."adult" airguns came over from firearms….and the same technique that you use on your 30-30 will not work on a springer.  Those same people toss them aside to use as door stops, grab a PCP and WOW that shoots just like a good ole 3006 and I don't have to learn nothin new….sold…time to bad mouth springers of all kinds….I will be a little nicer to the german versions because everything german is good…but that chinese and spanish stuff…that is all junk.

    See my point above to bandg.

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    bandg
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    So how do you explain those in this thread alone that state no improvement from the method?  Simple question, unless one believes that what they are doing is somehow different.  If it works for you, it should work for all.  But again, anyone can use whatever shooting technique they choose.

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    GoldenStateAIRGUNer
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    bandg

    So how do you explain those in this thread alone that state no improvement from the method?  Simple question, unless one believes that what they are doing is somehow different.  If it works for you, it should work for all.  But again, anyone can use whatever shooting technique they choose.

    Simple ! I can only speak for myself which means subjectivity comes into play. Myself, I couldn't get consistent groups with the Sig. After trying the techniques mentioned by Tom Gaylord ( and others on YouTube)  I saw huge improvements the first time I tried them. No more complicated than that. You acknowledge in your last sentence that hold is important.

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    bandg
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    Doesn't seem like I acknowledged any such thing.  But again, if it works for you then do it.  It hasn't worked for me.  That's what I acknowledged.

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    GoldenStateAIRGUNer
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    bandg

    Doesn't seem like I acknowledged any such thing.  But again, if it works for you then do it.  It hasn't worked for me.  That's what I acknowledged.

    You mentioned " shooting technique ". Could that be described as " hold" ?

    I get it ! You're of the belief that it doesn't work. Fine ! To each their own! 

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    steve123
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    I only read a small portion of this thread so…

    Anyhow, what I've found with springers is when I change my hold in any way, it changes the POI at least some and to varying degrees.

    How hard my cheek weld is, from medium to very little, and how hard I'm pushing it from the side. Same with how I grip the rifle. Same with where I hold the rifle with my support hand or how hard I hold the rifle. And what I'm meaning is aiming at very difficult targets not pop cans at 10-15 yards away! The secret if you can call it that is to try to "do" "everything" the same every time. I personally don't use the artillery per say but just hold the rifle softly and try to follow through. 

    I've won a few FT comps in springer class using a bone stock TX200 and truthfully I didn't find shooting it in FT fun because of how hold sensitive it was. Over the years I sold most of my springers because they aren't very appealing to me anymore. The only one I regret selling is a FWB 300S which seemed less hold sensitive than any springer I've shot so far.

    Also it seems the more powerful and violent the rifle is the more problems I've had in not just accuracy but also things coming loose on the rifle. Though not technically a springer the Beeman Crow Magnum I had in .20 cal was a very hard rifle to shoot well. 

     

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    GoldenStateAIRGUNer
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    " Anyhow, what I've found with springers is when I change my hold in any way, it changes the POI at least some and to varying degrees. "

    True, consistent hold is just as important as the hold itself.

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