If you’re into 100y 5 shot groups

Here Are my best magic groups in the last few months. They were shot at 115 or 100 yards five shots each. All with slugs of course. The funny looking group with all of the scratches and other bullet holes around it, was actually six shots at 115 yards, 1/10 of an inch. I had just cleaned my barrel and the first four shots, it was settling in. The next six shots all went in the same hole. Now that’s an outfit I could see competing with.

Nice shooting Mike. I’m sure eventually the 100 yard events will shift over to slugs vice pellets. Probably when they are more mainstream, currently they are moving in that direction. I do see, even if there is a separate slug class, that the ammo requirement will be commercially available ammo just like it currently is with pellets. Or maybe they’ll have an Unlimited Class where you can tether or do whatever you want. It’s really up to the major sponseers. Interesting times to be in air guns. 

After three rifles and about a year of trying, I’ve come to the conclusion that shooting pellets competitively at 100 yards makes no sense. 


I tried both a 22 and 25 red wolf. Used the Heli board and programmer. 

Neither one of them shoots consistent enough at 100 yards in any kind of conditions other than perfect. Even in perfect conditions you still get flyers even with the best batch of pellets.

it makes absolutely no sense to me to have a contest shooting at 100 yards with pellets, when the slugs shoot so much better, and are aerodynamically so superior.

I don’t understand why we try to compete with pellets at 100 yards.

Mike explain this to me about a year and a half ago. I had to find out for myself. I would be very interested in a competition with slugs, but I’m just not willing to put up with the inconsistencies caused by the pellets.

I have been shooting pellet guns at long range past 100 yards for over 10 years. With a little luck, perfect technique and a great rifle you can still shoot a great five shot group with pellets. If you double the size of the group to 10 shots, the group basically doubles in size. I spent an entire summer trying to shoot a 10 shot group, as good as my best five shot groups. It’s not possible.

then you take it up to 25 shots, forget it. The guy who wins is going to be the guy who shoots really well and gets lucky at the same time. He probably also has the best batch of pellets.

I shot about a dozen cards over 230 with pellets during that time. Once I broke 240. In every single case conditions were absolutely perfect. If I try to do the same thing in any kind of wind above 3 to 5 miles an hour, I’m going to drop down to 200. It just makes absolutely no sense to me. And I am very stubborn, it took me over a year to finally come to this conclusion.



mike

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Mike

You absolutely captured my exact same frustration! If everyone is being truly honest, they would agree too!

Nation - PLEASE..... read Mike’s post carefully. He tells it exactly how it is!

This is a person who knows what he is talking about. 

Tom 

Mike....I’m glad you said it, because I would get flamed for that.

I think it’s nonsense, too. Moreover...these events shoot one card to determine the winner....when 6 cards is the general minimum for a tournament. If it was a 6 card tournament with normal rotation...at least the guy with the most skill and consistency would likely win. One card is the equivalent of a two shot group....which is least number possible to form a group. Many rally against low number groups pointing out they are meaningless...but seem happy with one card tournaments.

In reality...if you remove the luck factor as much as possible....many will not find it “fun” any more. The overwhelming majority of EBR attendees will only shoot a couple cards per year since there is virtually no club level 100y pellet shooting in the entire country. Even in Phoenix it’s rare to see more than a couple of shooters show up for a 100y monthly match. It seems that nobody is interested enough in 100y pellet shooting to care to get together regularly for a club match without the hype.

Mike

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Mike the same can be said about rimfire shooting at 100 yards. It may be fun but it is anything but precision shooting.

TKH 

If we don’t tell the sponsors what we want, and vote with our wallet, they are not going to hear us.

I personally think the extreme challenges and the tournament sponsored by AoA is awesome ...That said, it would make an awful lot of sense to look at revamping the rules and make it relevant to today’s technology.

why would I not be able to compete with JSB slugs which are sold by AOA? They shoot way better. They are much more consistent. They shoot much more consistent in the wind. Way less flyers! Just the fact that they hit 6 inches higher at 100 yards is significant. That tells me that aerodynamically they are a much better projectile.

I would challenge AOA to revamp the entire tournament. Get some off hand shots on the FT course! What FT course does not have any offhand shots. Frankly, a 4 inch circle at 100 yards would be relatively easy offhand, Why not add it to the mix?

I don’t know how many rifles I’ve bought from a AoA over the last 10 years, certainly more than I have fingers. Again, we need to vote with our wallets.

I personally will not get on an airplane to go and shoot in a tournament shoot pellets at 100 yards. If I want that kind of frustration I can find it in many aspects of my life Without paying for it, and using up my precious time.

on the other hand for a revamped tournament, I’d Be on a plane this fall to compete.

mike

Centercut said the most relevant thing In his last post. We will just have to wait for the major sponsors to decide where this will go. That’s a sad commentary on the state of development.



I believe our wallets should have more influence. We need to make our feelings known. I’m all for a fun tournament, but it should be one where everyone has a chance to win based on skill with some luck.

if more people say I’m not going...That’s a powerful motivator for the sponsors.

If EBR keeps selling out, nothing will change. We have a voice, we need to use it.

mike

As I think out loud...

I know we shouldn't compare airguns shooting pellets at 100Y to firearms but I can't help it since I know what firearms are capable of, just sayin!

As far as the EBR targets go I think they are great for 75Y with pellets. I might even stand a chance at getting a 250 someday. At 100Y If the X ring was .75" and the 10 ring 1.1" It would make me feel better shooting pellets at 100Y. It's the manor at which I rationalise, meaning I'd like to shoot a perfect score at least once in a great while if at all possible. 

Shooting steel with pellets is a ton of fun if you can hit most of them, meaning that they are sized well enough to enable a perfect score. I really like Ron Robinson's benchrest Silhouette match because of this. 

For me it comes down to "HIT RATIO", a high hit ratio is fun and a low hit ratio tends to frustrate.

Imagine if in FT the Troyer factors were in the 60's all the time, sorry but that wouldn't work for me, that's how feel when I shoot the EBR target at 100Y with pellets. Partly because my rifle and ammo aren't up to hitting the KZ every time and besides that I'm not even close to the skill level needed. 

When I first joined AGN I was opposed to slugs because a large portion of the groups I'd see people shoot were dismal with bad flyers, and like I've mentioned at least a few times here on AGN, I wasn't going for a slug gun until that problem was solved, well it seems Mike N has overcome that obstacle which is fantastic! 

Medium quality Rimfire ammo can have pretty bad extreme spreads, and good ammo like Lapua Midas+ is $16 for 50 rounds, therefore Mike's slug system is making "SO MUCH" sense to me right now! 

If EBR keeps selling out, nothing will change. We have a voice, we need to use it.

mike

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I can see both sides of the story here, total precision versus adding in more luck that some serious short range benchrest shooters are comfortable with. Shooting 3 cards versus 6 to 9 is not what is "normal" for long time competitors. The problem is that the EBR type events (EBR, RMAC, PAC) are very popular and growing even more so. Watch this year (if we have those with the Wuhan Flu and all), there will be more participation that ever. I can understand the discussion above, but like @flintsack says, if it keeps selling out... and it does, it won't change. But I do think eventually it will change and allow slugs, or have a separate slug class. It will also take time since the vast majority of airguns currently sold aren't used to shoot slugs. All that being said, it is a truly fun and entertaining event. The Extreme Field Target at the Phoenix Rod and Gun Club monthly is an off shoot of the event at EBR. Like FT, but from 25 to 100 yards and with guns up to 100 FPE, slugs allowed. Its a start...

I see your point.

It seems you guys are in the same boat as rimfire shooters.

We have many that believe it should be a pure accuracy sport, while others would be happy with a larger luck factor.

We are slowly gravitating that way. Our ARA Nationals was an 8 target agg. now it is 6. Our PSL Main event is only three targets.

If it is pure accuracy you normally have one or two guys that wins nearly every match. When this happens attendance suffers.

But getting back to the 100 yard vs 50 yard thing. A rimfire can shoot 50 yards in average conditions with precision.

It cannot shoot 100 yards in average conditions with what one would call precision.

I shot 4 100 yard matches last year. I never felt I knew where the bullets were going.

There is just too much going on at that distance. 

I was the only person there using flags. I thought they were crazy for not using flags. 

After awhile I learned they had really given up shooting for precision, they were just watching where their last shot landed, and used that data for their next point of aim. 

That just doesn't work in anything but very stable conditions. 

I thought I had a real advantage with my flags. Then I learned they weren't as much help as I thought.

I used 5 flags and two windercators. They were moving in so many directions I couldn't keep up.

I ended up watching the ones closest to me, but got burned many times by wind down range. Since the flags were all facing different directions I had to pick something. In short, they were of limited value.

Now with that said, I would never shoot without flags. Some help is better than no help. 

The other guys tried watching my flags. They felt they were of little use, and just didn't bother with them. 

Again, it just depends on just how accurate you want to be. 

Shooting rimfire at 100 yards is a fun game, but not a precision shooting game. 

TKH

Hi Tony...good post.

To put pellets into perspective for you at 100y....imagine that every mistake you made in Rimfire was magnified by a factor of 3-4x.

Mike 

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You guys are all making me feel a whole lot better about the consistently lousy 100 yard EBR cards I shoot / post regularly. Now I am armed with all the excuses I need to justify my frustration with the MRD pellets at the range.

I told Mike (CC) recently I went back to 50 yard BR temporarily to build my confidence and learnings with flags at a bit more manageable distance. Still love the 100 yard stuff, but it can be humbling and demoralizing at times. 

Good discussions here..

Sounds like a good idea Tommy. I always shoot at least 50 shots at 50 yards before I go to any further distance to check my zero since it can't really be done at 100 yards in any sort of breeze or wind. Shoot at 50 then go to 75, and if it feels good there, go to 100. 

Its easy to get discouraged, and as discussed on AGN the past year, it does involve some luck and patience to shoot a good score at 100 yards. One thing to remember is the higher scores you see, although damn fine shooting, were not shot in competition. If you look at the three major 100 yard Pellet tournaments shot in 2019, out of 500 or more attempts, NO ONE shot better than 225. Even the winners. In fact, if someone offered me a 230 at each of the three big 100 yard events in 2021, I'd take them sight unseen, and probably win all three. Of course, I could be wrong, as I have been more than once - a lot more.

Hi Tony...good post.

To put pellets into perspective for you at 100y....imagine that every mistake you made in Rimfire was magnified by a factor of 3-4x.

Mike 

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You guys are all making me feel a whole lot better about the consistently lousy 100 yard EBR cards I shoot / post regularly. Now I am armed with all the excuses I need to justify my frustration with the MRD pellets at the range.

I told Mike (CC) recently I went back to 50 yard BR temporarily to build my confidence and learnings with flags at a bit more manageable distance. Still love the 100 yard stuff, but it can be humbling and demoralizing at times. 

Good discussions here..

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In rimfire match today at 50 yards you can bet someone will shoot 250 with 16+ Xs on nearly every card. 248s and 9s won years ago but not often today.

Indoors it is 250 20+ Xs to win a card. That is the state of the art.

What would be ball park numbers for air rifles with pellet or slugs?

TKH