Hunter class question about butt pad

Yes, again, this is only the TEXtreme FT rules we are speaking of here. AAFTA has no definition or measures of defining of a hook. 

This one is a no-go for TEXtrem FT!! It actually upsets me as the factory butt is terrible and doesn’t adjust enough vertically! I’d love to use this DW. You can’t make any situation and all folks happy though. I do understand that.

To the OP, what if you win the Hunter class and someone says, we’ll he used a butt-hook!! 

Then what? 

A butt hook is a separate add on to the butt plate and has nothing to do with the angles of the adjustable shoulder contour wings on a buttplate. That’s why AAFTA doesn’t bother to define it any further.

Butt hooks were actually created for smallbore prone shooters using slings. Why someone decided they are helpful for FT is beyond my understanding as they do not add any stability for me. They do look cool, though. 

Mike

Click to expand...

You’re beginning to define it. Why doesn’t AAFTA just spell it out?
There are folks that say the adjustable wings, especially more than 2 pivot points, can be adjusted to a hook. If you can let go of the gun and it remains perched on the shoulder, they may have a good point. 

We're out there a ways from the original question but I'll add another couple cents since the discussion went this direction. 

I have the exact Brian Samson (sp?) butt pad/hook that was asked about by the OP. Actually I have a couple of them. One on a springer and one on a Veteran. After shooting both guns with OEM pads and then adding the Samson contraption, there is a DEFINITE advantage to using that curved buttpad, especially from shooting sticks where the gun is trying to slide down your shoulder without it. And there's the rub! These hooked butt pads ARE helpful or we wouldn't be having this discussion, whether for AAFTA Hunter class or for Extreme FT. 

As for a true butthook like Mike N is referring to (one that goes under/over/around the armpit and/or shoulder, I personally see a benefit only when shooting from forced offhand shots. I only add it to the gun when shooting offhand (to my understanding, this is allowed in AAFTA Open class). Mine is a simple affair, just a straight bolt that threads into the bottom of the aluminum buttpad, near the bottom, and sticks straight back, under the armpit. For me it creates a sort of muscle-free anchor point so that the weight of the gun is leveraged between the non trigger hand, and literally "hooked" under the armpit. Less muscles required to hold up the gun, again, in my case. 

If the shooter wins and someone complains…then the complainer will have to learn what a butt hook is.

You cannot adjust a winged regular buttplate and transform it into a butt hook. The hook is an add on…just like a thigh rest is an add on. Simply resting a regular butt plate on your thigh does not make it a thigh rest. Angling the wings of a regular butt plate does not make it a butt hook.

In the picture below….the butt plate has a hook. If you take off the hook….it doesn’t have a hook anymore.

There is nothing complicated about the designation.

If the shooter wins and someone complains…then the complainer will have to learn what a butt hook is.

You cannot adjust a winged regular buttplate and transform it into a butt hook. The hook is an add on…just like a thigh rest is an add on. Simply resting a regular butt plate on your thigh does not make it a thigh rest. Angling the wings of a regular butt plate does not make it a butt hook.

In the picture below….the butt plate has a hook. If you take off the hook….it doesn’t have a hook anymore.

There is nothing complicated about the designation.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification. Obviously, I’m ignorant to the designations and evolution of it all. I suspect many of us are. Definition help a lot in this case. 

Everyone is forgiving of the rules unless you win. 
- Karen 

If the shooter wins and someone complains…then the complainer will have to learn what a butt hook is.

You cannot adjust a winged regular buttplate and transform it into a butt hook. The hook is an add on…just like a thigh rest is an add on. Simply resting a regular butt plate on your thigh does not make it a thigh rest. Angling the wings of a regular butt plate does not make it a butt hook.

In the picture below….the butt plate has a hook. If you take off the hook….it doesn’t have a hook anymore.

There is nothing complicated about the designation.

Click to expand...

This is what I was getting at when I was asking about length.....where do you draw the line?



All that length under, over, and around is still "wings" that can be adjusted to curve around. 

There's lots of other similar examples, that was just the first one I found illustrating my point. 

Cole….Neither of those are legal for AAFTA Hunter. The “hook” is the bottom extension….which is clearly different from the other components….and the top extension is a “hanger”.

By the world FT (WFTF) rules….anyone shooting the deadman position (like I do) cannot use a hanger. Anyone shooting a conventional wftf position can use a hanger. Either position can use a butt hook.

The bottom line is that the OPs butt plate is fine for AAFTA Hunter.

Mike 

Cole….Neither of those are legal for AAFTA Hunter. The “hook” is the bottom extension….which is clearly different from the other components….and the top extension is a “hanger”.

By the world FT (WFTF) rules….anyone shooting the deadman position (like I do) cannot use a hanger. Anyone shooting a conventional wftf position can use a hanger. Either position can use a butt hook.

The bottom line is that the OPs butt plate is fine for AAFTA Hunter.

Mike

Click to expand...

+1

Cole….Neither of those are legal for AAFTA Hunter. The “hook” is the bottom extension….which is clearly different from the other components….and the top extension is a “hanger”.

By the world FT (WFTF) rules….anyone shooting the deadman position (like I do) cannot use a hanger. Anyone shooting a conventional wftf position can use a hanger. Either position can use a butt hook.

The bottom line is that the OPs butt plate is fine for AAFTA Hunter.

Mike

Click to expand...

Yes Mike, I agree that someone in Hunter should not be using such a contraption. 

I likely need to skim through AAFTA rule book, but if (as has been noted here by other posters) there is no wording outlawing a large curved buttpad WINK WINK (a rose by any other name would smell so sweet) in Hunter class.....it's only a matter of time before one of the pushing-the-limits-types throws one on his Hunter class gun. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_(firearms)#:~:text=A%20butt%20hook%2C%20which%20is,used%20in%20competitive%20rifle%20shooting.

" A butt hook, which is an attachment to the butt of the gun that is put under the shooter's arm to prevent the rifle from pivoting forward from the weight of the barrel is sometimes used in competitive rifle shooting.["

My thoughts as an AAFTA club MD, the photo in the OPs post shows an acceptable AAFTA Hunter Butt pad as it does not go "under" the arm as defined above and per my own personal interpretation of the rule book over the years.

Greg

 This is a hook

 This is not a hook

 I'm not sure.

 I'm not sure.

 This is not a hook.

A lot of these are advertised as a butt hook. Even the bottom one which is the OP's style is labeled, at least in one advert, as a butt hook. 

For additional clarification(s)-

By the time DW and JT approached me (separately) about butt-hooks it had already occurred to me I might face the question sooner or later. I was also already aware that some rifles popular in Extreme Field Target have very curved rubber butt-pads. So when asked to address the question, I'd already- 1) decided not only that aforementioned curved rubber butt-pads were about the limit of curvature this conservatively-"minded" match director would abide, 2) the curved "hooks" on said pads seemed to me to be about 30 degrees, and 3) I'd have to translate any decision into Gadgetry (adjustable-winged pads).

So when DW mentioned he has an app that quantifies angles even on the curved rubber pad, and the app calls it 30 degrees, I issued an Executive Order stipulating 30 degrees as the limit (it's nice to be Dictator... I mean, "Match Director"). Truth be told (fasten your seat-belts!), I don't consider an angle a hook until it's steeper than a Right Angle. Nevertheless, I won't allow that steep an angle simply because I believe angles steeper than 30 degrees start lending elements of rifle support offensive to this lifelong hunter/twenty-year AAFTA Hunter... who has always, and probably always will, lobby for keeping some element(s) of 'traditional' in these airgun games purported to simulate hunting situations, scenarios, targets, and/or shooting equipment. Call me a dinosaur...

I'm often called MUCH WORSE! ;-) 

I shoot WFTF springer and I really like a hook. For standing and kneeling, it makes a big difference for me. Generally the spring guns are front heavy, so the hook prevents the back end from rising up on the shoulder.

Tim

Just because the AAFTA rules don't clearly define it, doesn't mean the match director can’t and won’t. I’ve hosted lots of ft matches, and would likely object to a hunter class gun with a protrusion at top or bottom of the buttplate extending more than 1.5 inches from the vertical centerline of a buttplate, whether curved, attached, rubber or whatever. If it obviously holds the but up with little to no rearward force by the shooter its a hook.

Ron’s 30 degree idea has lots of merit, but depth or length added completes the idea. Shooters don’t spend the extra money for those adjustable buttplates for nothing … but they don't really belong in hunter class.

LD

Franklink said:

We're out there a ways from the original question but I'll add another couple cents since the discussion went this direction.

I have the exact Brian Samson (sp?) butt pad/hook that was asked about by the OP. Actually I have a couple of them. One on a springer and one on a Veteran. After shooting both guns with OEM pads and then adding the Samson contraption, there is a DEFINITE advantage to using that curved buttpad, especially from shooting sticks where the gun is trying to slide down your shoulder without it. And there's the rub! These hooked butt pads ARE helpful or we wouldn't be having this discussion, whether for AAFTA Hunter class or for Extreme FT.

As for a true butthook like Mike N is referring to (one that goes under/over/around the armpit and/or shoulder, I personally see a benefit only when shooting from forced offhand shots. I only add it to the gun when shooting offhand (to my understanding, this is allowed in AAFTA Open class). Mine is a simple affair, just a straight bolt that threads into the bottom of the aluminum buttpad, near the bottom, and sticks straight back, under the armpit. For me it creates a sort of muscle-free anchor point so that the weight of the gun is leveraged between the non trigger hand, and literally "hooked" under the armpit. Less muscles required to hold up the gun, again, in my case.

Click to expand...