Harmonics and the RedWolf

With a crown and impact does every shot not also change the pressure in the tank? 

For that matter, does the pressure not change in the tank/tube of every airgun every time a shot is fired? 

I'm having a hard time with correlation between airgun brand and the laws of physics but please, help me out if I'm missing something. 

I hear ya on the regulated aspect but if that regulator isn't getting it's air from the tank/tube where is it coming from? Do certain brands of pcps not ever need filled? Man o man, maybe I have been missing something by not owning an FX gun, cuz I'm getting tired of putting more air in my pcps. 

(I own neither an FX or a Daystate so no brand loyalty here whatever, hopefully this can be taken as the tongue-in-cheek joke it is intended to be).

With a crown and impact does every shot not also change the pressure in the tank? 

For that matter, does the pressure not change in the tank/tube of every airgun every time a shot is fired? 

I'm having a hard time with correlation between airgun brand and the laws of physics but please, help me out if I'm missing something. 

I hear ya on the regulated aspect but if that regulator isn't getting it's air from the tank/tube where is it coming from? Do certain brands of pcps not ever need filled? Man o man, maybe I have been missing something by not owning an FX gun, cuz I'm getting tired of putting more air in my pcps. 

(I own neither an FX or a Daystate so no brand loyalty here whatever, hopefully this can be taken as the tongue-in-cheek joke it is intended to be).

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RW is unregulated so the tank pressure is directly pushing on the valve. The, for example, FX Impact has a regulator between the valve and the tank so there is a constant pressure on the valve

Hi Airsupply I am a bit confused by your question, Harmonic tuning is done to affect the time at which the pellet leaves the barrel relative to how the barrel is vibrating at that point.

Balancing the reg and hammer spring is not "Harmonic" tuning as such.

A mechanical gun has a main reservoir of air (bottle or cylinder) between the valve and the barrel is a second small reservoir i.e. the regulator, on the Redwolf this does not happen and works in the following way;

1) The electronics in the gun measure the pressure in the bottle.

2) Capacitors in the guns board store voltage to actuate the solenoid which hits the valve when you pull the trigger.

3) Through the algorithm in the electronics, the gun calculates the voltage to apply to the valve relative to the presssure in the bottle, thus determining the pulse of air behind the pellet.

4) The process is repeated after every shot.

This all works because an engineer at Daystate has mapped the behaviour of the gun, by firing a complete shot string from full to empty before it leaves the factory and tailoring the parameters, pulse length, voltage etc.etc. to that particular gun.

On an electronic gun voltage is power, just as on a mechanical gun the above isn't infinitely achievable though, the maximum and minimum pressure have to be decided on at the outset and will still affect the extreme spread of the shot string to an extent, knowledge of the guns performance and how that relates to the electronics is critical here.

A very simplified analogy but I hope that makes sense, if you wanted to "Harmonically tune" a Redwolf you can, you simply vary the parameters in the electronics to change the velocity, this will have basically the same effect as altering the mechanics on an IMPACT, the only difference being you need the programmer.

I think we may be talking on crossed terms here, again you mention harmonics, but that should not change if the velocity stays constant, the mechanical gun still has to cope with the same pressure ranges, it just does it in a different way.

The REDWOLF may appear to have more variables but excepting the longevity of the electronics it is way simpler, in fact IMO a mechanical regulator is the PIA part of most guns, simply because we demand such a high performance from it, the washers, piston etc. etc. all suffer from variables and wear, none of which are present in the electronic gun.

Lock time is interesting because in the electronic gun it's almost immeasurable it so quick, the mechanical gun also has disadvantages here with power VS how the trigger is set up, I think Bob also mentions that in one of his videos.

The REDWOLF may appear to have more variables but excepting the longevity of the electronics it is way simpler, in fact IMO a mechanical regulator is the PIA part of most guns, simply because we demand such a high performance from it, the washers, piston etc. etc. all suffer from variables and wear, none of which are present in the electronic gun.

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Agree 100%. I have a RW, also a RAW and FX Royale 400, have owned a number of other high quality mechanical rifles. Once I accepted the fact of the RW electronic controls, that it is a huge black box that I'll never really understand, I can now just shoot it and enjoy its nearly perfect management of the air flow. Combine that with a good barrel, and it is an amazing rifle. No, it doesn't produce quite the level of velocity consistency of well-regulated mechanical rifle, but it's close, and I haven't found accuracy to suffer from it, at least not at the distances I shoot. 

And as far as the complexity of the electronics, well, it's really not much different that nearly everything else in our modern life, and we're the better for it. I remember when wrist watches were always losing or gaining time and had to be constantly serviced, cars with ignition systems that needed new points and condensers every few thousand miles, radio and TV tuners that constantly broke down, etc. My only minor complaint with the RW is the trigger. Since it's essentially a pressure pad, there is no way to achieve the same crisp, glass-rod-breaking feel of a top shelf mechanical trigger (Steyr match trigger for example). But the positive of that, it's adjustment range is enormous, and like the operating system, there is nothing to get out of adjustment once you get it where you want it. In an all-purpose rifle I'll accept that trade off. I adjusted mine for a single stage feel. since the simulated two-stage operation just never felt good to me. 

There might come a day when mechanical operating high-end air rifles are a thing of the past, and like wood tennis rackets, not really missed. All it might take is the next evolution of producing consistent velocity, which would put it with the highest precision bench rest rifles. It's already plenty good for everything else. 

Air supply

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how is it achieved in the RW when with every shot the pressure in the bottle changes?

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RW is unregulated so the tank pressure is directly pushing on the valve. The, for example, FX Impact has a regulator between the valve and the tank so there is a constant pressure on the valve

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Every shot from both the red wolf, the fx guns, and every other PCP, changes the pressure in the air reservoir. The only regulated air is the air in the plenum, downstream of the air reservoir and upstream of the transfer port into the barrel. So, the air pressure in the reservoir changes after each shot so the plenum can be refilled. 

The red wolf is neither a traditional non-regulated gun (like a Disco) or a traditionally regulated gun like an Impact. It is an ELECTRONICALLY regulated gun. The board/programming is doing the regulating. All three types require air from somewhere though, that somewhere is the air reservoir, which does indeed change pressure with each shot. That's that pesky little laws of physics thing I was referring to. 

The underlying theme between all of the Impact/Red wolf or FX/Daystate arguments (and what feels like a good majority of the posts on airgun nation) is, which is better? 

The "which is better" question is one posed by the manufacturers just as much as any of us. They're fighting for our business ($$$) and really want us to think theirs is "better." Is a gun with a traditional regulator better than a. electronically regulated gun? Who knows. 

The "which is better" inevitably leads to the next question, " which one do I want to shoot in a competition where big bucks and bragging rights are at stake." It's funny how after these big product showcases, err "competitions," we see a sell-off of whatever didn't finish at the top. Happened last year with EBR and seems to be happening again this year with RMAC. 

What I feel is missed in these soul-searching introspections about what we are going to shoot in a competition, is the simple fact that the person spending the most time shooting their gun in ways that constitute meaningful practice, is the person most likely to win. Now, does making your living off the creation of shooting videos on YouTube, and/or being an employee of AOA, Utah Airguns, FX, Daystate, etc. put you at an advantage over the rest of us that have 40hr/week non-shooting clock in/clock out jobs, you betcha. I'm not putting them down at all, they put in the time and spent the whole year shooting. 

The best chance for a guy to beat one of the YouTubers/manufacturer employees is not to agonize over which gun (brand) you're shooting, but, rather to spend a whole lotta time shooting what they know to be an accurate gun. That means lots of money invested in pellets and a very understanding wife, or no wife. 

Sorry guys? I just have to take a break for awhile it’s not good for my mental state of mind...

I do not know much about the RW, but on traditional rifles with regulators, and hammer, there is basically 2 common ways to harmonic tune the gun. The most common is to reduce the hammerstrike, and thereby velocity on small increments from a given max velocity setpoint, and preset regpressure, until accuracy improve on target. That might lead to a velocity slower than intended. That is basically what Ernest Rowe showed us on the fx speed tuning video. The other way and probably more complicated way is to stick to the same velocity, and slowly increase both regpressure, and hammerstrike, to change the frequency of the harmonic wave. There might be different ways tuning with pellets or slugs. Pellets might accept a wider velocity range than slugs?

I think Matt Dubber showed on his facebook site, when he was working with slugliners at fx factory, groupings on target, with same velocity, but different regpressure. There was a noticable difference.

the fact that there is no hammer hitting a valve in the redwolf, makes it one step ahead of any mechanical rifle in terms of harmonic tuning .....its a computer controlling how much pressure and air volume it would use every shot. Of course, a red wolf can come with a non-harmonic configuration, there is a computer designed by daystate especially to tune this rifle

 

I have an Impact and Crown and have always followed the advice of Ted Matt and recently Bob and spent the time tuning carefully to a balance of regulator pressure and velocity. Harmonically happy to the best of my ability. 

My question is if harmonics are are result this balance and in a mechanically regulated gun these are a constant how is it achieved in the RW when with every shot the pressure in the bottle changes?

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Alright, I'll take a stab at actually answering your question, mostly cuz somebody got happy with the red balls about my joking (my first). 

Typed a big long post but went back and deleted it. It's not worth the argument. 

I have an Impact and Crown and have always followed the advice of Ted Matt and recently Bob and spent the time tuning carefully to a balance of regulator pressure and velocity. Harmonically happy to the best of my ability. 

My question is if harmonics are are result this balance and in a mechanically regulated gun these are a constant how is it achieved in the RW when with every shot the pressure in the bottle changes?

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Alright, I'll take a stab at actually answering your question, mostly cuz somebody got happy with the red balls about my joking (my first). 

Typed a big long post but went back and deleted it. It's not worth the argument.

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I read your post before you deleted it and actually I thought the point about barrel stiffness or whip was relevant, centerfire PPC barrels are usually made to be very short and stiff, the fixing of the barrel is relevant, perhaps this is why FX have changed the fixing system on the Crown Continuum to be able to support a 700mm barrel which is not advised on the standard Crown, I also agree FX is way too complex over a simple blank, there are lots of places where unwanted vibrations can be induced that cant be readily diagnosed.

Of course what we really need is for someone to compete at RMAC with a .30 cal REDWOLF.

the fact that there is no hammer hitting a valve in the redwolf, makes it one step ahead of any mechanical rifle in terms of harmonic tuning .....its a computer controlling how much pressure and air volume it would use every shot. Of course, a red wolf can come with a non-harmonic configuration, there is a computer designed by daystate especially to tune this rifle

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Then what's hitting the valve? Instead of a spring driven hammer it's a solenoid driven hammer. And therefore instead of pre-loading a spring for different tunes you're changing the acceleration profile of the solenoid driven hammer.

Although the airwolf and previous generations sound high tech, they have electrically driven hammers but practically function almost the same as unregulated mechanical guns. Probably they have some compensation for the higher pressures until they reach the sweet/flat spot in the pressure curve that every decently designed unregulated mechanical airgun has. It's not magic that they use 

I'm an electronics design engineer myself so I encourage every innovation in this hobby towards electronics (thinking about some things myself too), this might also be the reason that this isn't magical to me. Just wait and see, some real innovation is coming in an unknown time frame 

the fact that there is no hammer hitting a valve in the redwolf, makes it one step ahead of any mechanical rifle in terms of harmonic tuning .....its a computer controlling how much pressure and air volume it would use every shot. Of course, a red wolf can come with a non-harmonic configuration, there is a computer designed by daystate especially to tune this rifle

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Then what's hitting the valve? Instead of a spring driven hammer it's a solenoid driven hammer. And therefore instead of pre-loading a spring for different tunes you're changing the acceleration profile of the solenoid driven hammer.

Although the airwolf and previous generations sound high tech, they have electrically driven hammers but practically function almost the same as unregulated mechanical guns. Probably they have some compensation for the higher pressures until they reach the sweet/flat spot in the pressure curve that every decently designed unregulated mechanical airgun has. It's not magic that they use 

I'm an electronics design engineer myself so I encourage every innovation in this hobby towards electronics (thinking about some things myself too), this might also be the reason that this isn't magical to me. Just wait and see, some real innovation is coming in an unknown time frame 

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It may not be magic but I can tell you that the person who maps the gun in the factory has years of experience doing it, his experience can be the difference between and very well and very badly performing gun.

It may not be magic but I can tell you that the person who maps the gun in the factory has years of experience doing it, his experience can be the difference between and very well and very badly performing gun.

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I have no doubt about that!