Sorry...I thought you were just making a blanket airgun statement. No offense taken by me...I hope it’s the same for you.
Mike
Mike
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Groups sizes versus distance. Proportional?
- Thread starter Centercut
- Start date
IMHO, the deviation from controlled flight is cumulative, while the distance is linear. Once the projo is unstable, there is no coming back to optimal.
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Shoot indoors of a vise and shoot weighed pellets to .01 grain and run through an air gauge (such as a Dan Brown) and sort again in air gauges batches. OR make your own perfect match grade pellets with the H&HEM swage mold. NO sorting nor weighing necessary they come out THAT PERFECT!
NEVER SHOOT PELLETS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE TINS WITHOUT AT LEAST WEIGHING AND SORTING PROCESS IF YOU EXPECT SUB 1/2" GROUPS AT 100 YARDS! UNLESS YOU HAVE THOSE OLD PERFECT JSB GRAY TINS OR SOME EARLIER RED TINS THAT WERE PERFECT!
NEVER SHOOT PELLETS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE TINS WITHOUT AT LEAST WEIGHING AND SORTING PROCESS IF YOU EXPECT SUB 1/2" GROUPS AT 100 YARDS! UNLESS YOU HAVE THOSE OLD PERFECT JSB GRAY TINS OR SOME EARLIER RED TINS THAT WERE PERFECT!
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My thoughts:
Velocity decays faster than rotation, especially in low BC projectiles. What may have initially been near the optimal spin rate for a projectile velocity out to 50yds, becomes less than optimal at distances beyond that, as the velocity falls of by a significant amount.
Possible slutions?
Use a higher BC projectile so it stays closer to optimal over a longer distance.
Or
Use a slower twist rate. Though it may not be as good for the closer distances, it might not spread out as much at longer distances.
Velocity decays faster than rotation, especially in low BC projectiles. What may have initially been near the optimal spin rate for a projectile velocity out to 50yds, becomes less than optimal at distances beyond that, as the velocity falls of by a significant amount.
Possible slutions?
Use a higher BC projectile so it stays closer to optimal over a longer distance.
Or
Use a slower twist rate. Though it may not be as good for the closer distances, it might not spread out as much at longer distances.
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With a powder burner I could see it being proportional at 50 and 100. With air not so much. You lose a good deal of velocity between 50 and 100. That will allow wind and other factors to affect the projectile more at over 50. If you have a pcp with higher velocities this may not be as true. I don't have any pcps and can't speak to that.
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Another random thought...
Could it be related to what your sight picture is at certain distances and scope magnification?
Say you shoot at the same target size @50 and @100 yards. If you shoot both distances with 24x, your visual target at 100yards is half the size it was at 50yards. So your aiming resolution has decreased by a certain amount..maybe not 50%..but you can't get the same sight picture. Does that make any sense?
A simple test would be to shoot a group at 50yards with the scope set to 12x, Then repeat at 100yards with scope set to 24x. Are the groups proportional?
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This whole pellet thing, at "longer distances" these projectiles weren't intended to be shot at or were designed for, is a very tricky mystery! I enjoy trying these way out there, and plinking with them, but the precision of them compared to a good shooting rimfire or centerfire is pitiful.
As has been theorised already in this thread, if the ES is low, and the rifle/pellet combo has proven to shoot tight at close distances, that #1 - it has to be that pellets vary enough in consistency in all aspects, and #2 - that wind affects the vertical more than we think it does. Twist rate, rifling profiles, all that kind of stuff probably factors some kind of differential.
Mike N, and Mike B, since you guys have the most precise rifle/pellet combo, it would be interesting for us to see a video of 25 shots at 100Y in slow motion, and shot over a chrono, to see if the flyers show poor/odd flight behavior compared to the good shots.
Heck, for that matter, test some damaged pellets, light vs heavy, then the best in weight and uniformity using video and the chrono.
As if you didn't have enough to do already, lol. Not that I'd expect you guys to go through the hassle...
I wish there were match grade tracer pellets so we could watch them in flight through our rifle scopes!!! I bet we'd learn a lot.
It's going to be cool when slugs, barrels, and PCP rifles get to the point that consistent sub moa can be achieved at longer distances. Until then I'll stick to my 22 rimfire and not fuss over "it".
As has been theorised already in this thread, if the ES is low, and the rifle/pellet combo has proven to shoot tight at close distances, that #1 - it has to be that pellets vary enough in consistency in all aspects, and #2 - that wind affects the vertical more than we think it does. Twist rate, rifling profiles, all that kind of stuff probably factors some kind of differential.
Mike N, and Mike B, since you guys have the most precise rifle/pellet combo, it would be interesting for us to see a video of 25 shots at 100Y in slow motion, and shot over a chrono, to see if the flyers show poor/odd flight behavior compared to the good shots.
Heck, for that matter, test some damaged pellets, light vs heavy, then the best in weight and uniformity using video and the chrono.
As if you didn't have enough to do already, lol. Not that I'd expect you guys to go through the hassle...
I wish there were match grade tracer pellets so we could watch them in flight through our rifle scopes!!! I bet we'd learn a lot.
It's going to be cool when slugs, barrels, and PCP rifles get to the point that consistent sub moa can be achieved at longer distances. Until then I'll stick to my 22 rimfire and not fuss over "it".
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Find an accuracy nutcase local to you ask for pellets swaged in his H&HEM mold then try shooting those at 100 yards.
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They machine the cavities using a CNC mill, then surface grind the faces to get the right diameter. It will only be the right diameter 90 degrees to the parting line.
You could just save us the time and show us your groups at 100.
Mike
You could just save us the time and show us your groups at 100.
Mike
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He will do it if you beg him enough. Plus pay the price of course. Tell him it's the ONLY WAY you can compete and "I was TOLD by a real accuracy fanatic YOU DAN IS DA MAN"
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If you ask Dan, himself, he will tell you the air gauge is no substitute for a good shooting tin of pellets. You’re better off looking for good pellets than trying to polish turds.
I believe the act of sorting is just soothing to some. They believe the more procedures they do to something, the better the results will be. I don’t see anyone shooting the EBR practice cards even close to my scores. I don’t do a dang thing. I’m not shooting in 15 mph wind typically, but it sure isn’t calm, either.
I try pellets....if they shoot well I buy as many as I can. If they don’t, I forget about them. I’m not going to fix them with weighing or sorting.
I would rather practice more than jerk around. with sorting.
That’s just me, though.
Mike
I believe the act of sorting is just soothing to some. They believe the more procedures they do to something, the better the results will be. I don’t see anyone shooting the EBR practice cards even close to my scores. I don’t do a dang thing. I’m not shooting in 15 mph wind typically, but it sure isn’t calm, either.
I try pellets....if they shoot well I buy as many as I can. If they don’t, I forget about them. I’m not going to fix them with weighing or sorting.
I would rather practice more than jerk around. with sorting.
That’s just me, though.
Mike
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Mike, no disrespect intended. You've talked the talk, and posted the post. But unless you walk the walk, we'll just never know. I know I am very interested and if you're as good as you say above a couple of points of "luck" won't make a damn difference. I truly do hope you come and demolish the field, I'd be the first one to congratulate you!... I've been averaging about 5 or 6 points less than you, which "isn't even close", so even if I (or another) get "lucky" and you shoot your 237s, you'll run away with it. I hope you do come show us how its done... 
Honestly, no put down intended, more of a compliment.
Honestly, no put down intended, more of a compliment.Upvote 0
Won’t happen with their format.
I’d love to meet you halfway sometime though and we could see how things go. I’ll even concede right now that you are probably a better EBR shooter than I am. I’m actually not touting myself as a great shooter by pointing out that I don’t sort pellets to get good scores. You can look at it anyway you would like.
I’m talking with a guy right now about a meet up in Page, AZ. He’s a repeat top contender at EBR and wants to compare my gun to his current rig. I think it’s a great idea. I’m not interested in competing at EBR as I’ve explained ad infinitum...but I am interested in building a good gun. I have been shooting 100y for about 2 months and as you know I shoot the wind in traditional BR fashion. I’d be a fool to think I’m that good at it.
Would enjoy seeing what you could do with it, too.
Bros before Hose
Mike
I’d love to meet you halfway sometime though and we could see how things go. I’ll even concede right now that you are probably a better EBR shooter than I am. I’m actually not touting myself as a great shooter by pointing out that I don’t sort pellets to get good scores. You can look at it anyway you would like.
I’m talking with a guy right now about a meet up in Page, AZ. He’s a repeat top contender at EBR and wants to compare my gun to his current rig. I think it’s a great idea. I’m not interested in competing at EBR as I’ve explained ad infinitum...but I am interested in building a good gun. I have been shooting 100y for about 2 months and as you know I shoot the wind in traditional BR fashion. I’d be a fool to think I’m that good at it.
Would enjoy seeing what you could do with it, too.
Bros before Hose
Mike
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Gotcha. I’ll let it go now. I’ve tried.
And looking at your cards I’d say you are a better shooter than me. EBR 2019 was only my one year anniversary of competition shooting since EBR 2018 was my first tournament. And you’ve put in more practice the past couple of months than most of us get in a couple years. Its not calendar time, it’s shots and targets plus actual practice time that counts.
What I have discovered is that your competition scores will be about ten points less than your practice scores. Even then, 227 is good enough to win. I’d like to shoot with you also since I have a lot to learn with shooting and wind reading. I’d also like to see how my gun stacks up against yours but mine is the same as the one of the guy you’ll be shooting with in AZ. In fact he set my gun up for me.
The only recommendation I have for your guns is to make repeaters. In light winds a single shot is not a disadvantage, but the harder it blows the more a repeater has an advantage. Once it’s blowing hard and swirling wind flags will only confuse you... and the hose Rapid Fire technique becomes more reliable.
My guess is that in conditions like Rio Salado 2019 EBR would be you shooting about what Nicolay did to win, 225. I think he’s the 4 or 5 time Russian National BR champion so that’s damn good. Ken Hicks came in 2nd with a 221 only because he shot a 4 on one target. Not sure if it was misread or bad pellet or whatever. He’d have won has that not happened.
And looking at your cards I’d say you are a better shooter than me. EBR 2019 was only my one year anniversary of competition shooting since EBR 2018 was my first tournament. And you’ve put in more practice the past couple of months than most of us get in a couple years. Its not calendar time, it’s shots and targets plus actual practice time that counts.
What I have discovered is that your competition scores will be about ten points less than your practice scores. Even then, 227 is good enough to win. I’d like to shoot with you also since I have a lot to learn with shooting and wind reading. I’d also like to see how my gun stacks up against yours but mine is the same as the one of the guy you’ll be shooting with in AZ. In fact he set my gun up for me.
The only recommendation I have for your guns is to make repeaters. In light winds a single shot is not a disadvantage, but the harder it blows the more a repeater has an advantage. Once it’s blowing hard and swirling wind flags will only confuse you... and the hose Rapid Fire technique becomes more reliable.
My guess is that in conditions like Rio Salado 2019 EBR would be you shooting about what Nicolay did to win, 225. I think he’s the 4 or 5 time Russian National BR champion so that’s damn good. Ken Hicks came in 2nd with a 221 only because he shot a 4 on one target. Not sure if it was misread or bad pellet or whatever. He’d have won has that not happened.
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There is no real way to compare scores if not shot at the same place and time. It’s just not doable. Great scores can be shot in what looks to be really tough wind, and poor ones in wind that looks easy. Just never know. I would think that others shooting the EBR card thing have gotten a chance to shoot in conditions they liked by now.
Im actually looking for competitive guys to come out to my place to compare equipment. I’m not interested in shooting against them...I’m interested in seeing how they do with my gun compared to theirs.
I cannot recall a competition I’ve ever been in where I did everything right. it’s ultra rare for it to happen to anyone. So when I come in second and look back over the day and sum up my troubles....I have to remember that the guy that beat me probably had a few troubles of his own, too.
Mike
Im actually looking for competitive guys to come out to my place to compare equipment. I’m not interested in shooting against them...I’m interested in seeing how they do with my gun compared to theirs.
I cannot recall a competition I’ve ever been in where I did everything right. it’s ultra rare for it to happen to anyone. So when I come in second and look back over the day and sum up my troubles....I have to remember that the guy that beat me probably had a few troubles of his own, too.
Mike
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It's enjoyable to watch how top shooter like you are not shooting AT each other — with attitudes, words, put-downs.... — but showing respect for each other, and an attitude of "humility" (or whatever you call that thing opposite of chest-beating pride).
There are some threads out there where people shoot AT each other — with anything short of pellets....
Thanks, guys, for showing us how it's done — with gun & target, and with fellow competitors.
Matthias
There are some threads out there where people shoot AT each other — with anything short of pellets....
Thanks, guys, for showing us how it's done — with gun & target, and with fellow competitors.
Matthias
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