Group size determined by several "close pellets" in a PATTERN of fliers??

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Jun 1, 2016
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LOL....I read of folks doing this but didn't really believe it!

I watched two different YouTube airgun "reviews" where the shooter actually called a 10 shot group size based on a few of the pellets grouping tightly "INSIDE the pattern". Calling a group size using this method took what looked like a 2" group (including fliers) and designated it as a 1/2" group. Hummmm.......I do wonder how it's possible to judge the accuracy potential of the GUN being reviewed with such a "grouping method"!

When shooting a group with my .177 HW95 or .177 Beeman R9 the group size includes the "extreme fliers".

For example, here are a few of my "dumb luck groups" shooting hunter class field target style (sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks)............

https://imgur.com/8SZm6IE

https://imgur.com/v6Ug0yH

https://imgur.com/eIKiook



LOL.....for me this 50 yard 5 shot group is about 5/8" CTC, not 1/4" CTC if I ignore the flier............

https://imgur.com/PylyDyl

Here are a few more normal 5 shot groups (not "dumb luck groups") where I shot 165 consecutive shots at distances from 10 yards to 50 yards......

https://imgur.com/5ko3WLg

Those 50 yard groups are about 1 1/4" CTC including the fliers, not 1/2" CTC if I tossed out the "fliers".

Anywhoo.....after watching those "reviews" including the "groups inside the pattern" doesn't indicate the accuracy potential of the shooter or hardware, and as mentioned, I didn't actually believe some folk "cherry picked" a tight group out of a shotgun pattern, but I was obviously wrong!




 
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So annoying that reviewers do that. I loose all respect for them. My best group is. 1/2" 10 shot group at 25 yds. Very next target same pellets 2 fliers created a 1 and 3/4" group, but if a took out the fliers it would have been an 8 shot group at 1/4". Nope sorry a group is a group the whole thing not just the cherry picked. Its gonna get to the point where you could claim hole in hole groups with only counting the ones that hit.
 
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"typical soup can lid to cover the pattern???"

LOL....as long as the soup can is about 5" in diameter! Here is a screen shot of the mentioned Gamo Swarm group using my "screen shot" function. I then circled the 10 shot group using Gimp............

https://imgur.com/BgWQK8U

According to the video, this group of 10 pellets (one magazine from the Gamo Swarm) shows that the Swarm is good for "1/2" groups all day long" at 35 yards when the outside hits are taken away. LOL....the claim was also made that the half inch group from the Gamo "is as good as a PCP".

I take this to mean that the 4ish pellets in the 1/2" group is the accuracy of the Gamo but the other shots are caused by the shooter.

Who knows, could be true I guess!


 
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By that logic, all of my groups are one hole! Man, I knew I was good! If you shoot 'em, they count in the group... you can't pick and choose the good ones. I'd even go a step further and say you have to determine the amount of shots in the group before you shoot. Otherwise, you can start out planning to shoot a 5 shot group and have the first 3 shots on top of each other and call it good, forget the last 2, they might ruin your great grouping. lol.
 
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Sounds like the type of illogic that scientist are using these days for claiming wild theories and assumptions as fact! :(

Something like give a room full of monkeys typewriters and in 4 billion years or so they will type the complete works of Shakespeare.

Possibly .... but only if you remove the "flyers ... incorrect letters" from the grouping! lol 

Truth is Truth even if no one believes it and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it!

In the old days we called "relative truth" a "conditional variable" which is still true because Truth is ABSOLUTE! :)

Sorry I find liars irritating at best. ;)
 
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I mean, there is a such thing as "called fliers" but usually thats at further range and you call what direction you pulled the shot. Thats how I keep myself honest at least. But the gun can have fliers and that isn't your fault and should be counted as part of the group.
Click to expand...



If I shoot a great group with one flier, I still call it a great group. I can take the flier or leave it. I do understand when someone wants to toss the flier because not all pellets are created equal. If I sort and weigh pellets, I only get the rare flier. So if I shoot a 10 shot group with unsorted pellets and one of the them flies off to the right, in my mind, I don't care about that one too much. I count it more as the pellet's fault and not mine, considering I just held dead still for the other 9. I'm looking to see how the gun shoots and if I am steady enough to hold still for one pellet on top of another at whatever distance. If you've been shooting long enough, you KNOW when there is a flier or when you just pulled it. 

Just my 2 cents.



Crusher


 
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Oh no!!! So these two 7 shot groups with my .22 Cricket mini Carbine shot today at 51 yards aren’t inside MOA? Well, if I didn’t count the “flyer” they would be... All shots in a group count. FYI, if I’d have only shot 5 shots both groups would have been tighter. But I shoot 1/2 of a mag with the Cricket and the mag holds 14... Shot prone off a bipod in light breeze.

1531093430_9520092815b42a1b64bd619.00165192_AB2FEBCD-7D9E-47BE-AC05-967CE5A48131.jpeg





 
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Kinda interesting that when I shoot more than 5 shots in a group it seems that I'm also measuring the consistency of the SHOOTER as much as the gun/pellet combo. Here is an example of some 10 shot groups from "bucket and sticks" on a day when the shooter (me) was unusually steady. Intending to shoot this 100 bull target "one bull at a time" I started shooting at the "zero bull" noticing that the grouping was TERRIBLE (about 1" ctc at 18 yards). I verified the grouping by shooting at bull #10 and then decided to skip the "one shot per bull" session. I was guessing that the bore was fouled so I pulled through a few dry patches. After the bore clean bull #1 was shot 10 times to "season the bore" and 10 CPLs were shot at each bull #5, #6 & #7. Not actually "benched PCP quality groups" but for me the "after bore clean groups" are exceptionally good for me..........

https://imgur.com/4TSHToS

LOL....this also shows that (for me) a fouled bore will affect the accuracy of my HW springers but that's a different discussion.

Back to the pellet grouping discussion, while the "Gamo review" I viewed had a "strange to me method of group size" (reduced 5" CTC to 1/2" CTC) group making the claim rather useless, I also can vary my group sizes simply by shooting pellets unsuited to my HW95, notice the Daisy pointed pellet group in the lower pic. If I had shot 10 pellets in each group I'm guessing that I would also have a few "very tight cherry picked groups inside the fliers" regardless of the pellet accuracy.

https://imgur.com/mJUc0Le

https://imgur.com/M0Qh7iL




 
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Entertaining video, however I do wonder about the point being made. I do agree that "one shot isn't a group", however trying to use computer software to determine the poi didn't seem to work any better for the shooter in the vid the Chairgun program worked for me! LOL......after the first 5 shot group I would have adjusted my scope turrets to center the rather large 25 yard group (similar to the 25 yard groups I got with SuperMags). I certainly wouldn't be shooting a 10 shot and a 30 shot group proving that the computer info was rather useless. A few 5 shot groups using "scope turret adjustments" would have centered those sloppy groups on the aim point well before shooting a "30 shot group" regardless of the "computer data". Hummm......come to think of it, shooting the 30 shot group did turn the "5 shot pattern" into a gigantic "30 shot group" once you tossed out the 7 shot group on the left and 2 shot group under the 21 shot "one hole group".

A few comments...............

1. I shot RWS SuperMags years ago from my .177 R9 and accuracy started "going south" at 25 yards.

2. Years ago I tried to use ChairGun to predict my poi based on velocity and didn't find the data matched this target shot "real time". Perhaps my "Chairgun failure" was simply "bad input" but I found it easier and better to simply shoot groups than trying to get Chairgun to match "real world"........

https://imgur.com/5ko3WLg

3. The claim that a "three shot group isn't a group" probably depends on the shooter and the equipment. When I first sold a used .177 Beeman R9 to my brother he used "3 shot powder burner groups" because that was what he was familiar with. Here are two 50 yard 3 shot groups done at one shooting session and I do suspect that two 3 shot groups are at least as good as one 5 shot group..........

https://imgur.com/QDfRViZ


 
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