Good Scope Information

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stoti

stoti

Member
Apr 6, 2018
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Beautiful Northern California, United States
Hey guys, there has been a lot of questions about rifle scopes lately on AGN. A couple of buddies and I have been discussing all of the scope talk lately here on AGN and I have also been contacted by a few people asking about some of the stuff that has been said. Questions about European glass compared vs. Japanese glass vs. US glass vs. glass made in the Philippines or China. Also asked about are the real value of optics...the MSRP vs. sale prices, MAP pricing, low priced vs. high priced, and things like that. If a scope has an inflated selling price of $1900 and then is frequently sold on closeout for $699, does that make it a $1900 or a $699 scope? Was it ever worth $1900 or is that just marketing? Another thing I was asked about and hear all the time is if two similar scopes that are made at the same factory in Japan, with similar specifications are the “same” scope. To keep prices down, LOW(Light Optical Works) offers varying degrees of customization when they manufacture and put together the scope for a customer. The customer has the choice of optical design, components and construction; the coatings used and on which surfaces; gasses used to purge the scope; erector design and materials used; the tube design, thickness, diameter, materials used and construction; The magnification range; the close focus distance/parallax; the aesthetic design; Final testing and quality control. These choices are many and varied. To cut costs, a customer can choose some of the same components as are used in other similar looking optics or none. Obviously the more components chosen that have already been designed for other scopes will be cheaper and why it’s done. Yes, they may be very similar but optical designs, turrets and reticles are usually completely different. I guess it comes down to what you consider “the same”.

Because I’ve been asked about this stuff by quite a few different people and talking about it a lot lately, I decided to finally respond. I tried to dig up a bit of information to share here on AGN. I’m not trying to offend anyone or step on toes here. When it comes to optics, many are very, very brand loyal and people get offended when anything negative is said about their optic of choice, so I’m not going there. I’m just trying to share information so you can read up on any of this stuff yourself.

I’ll just say this, TESTING OPTICS IS SUBJECTIVE! Because most people who buy sporting optics will get them and test them out in the middle of the day, 99% of scopes are going to look great, clear and bright. The exit pupil almost allows for more light than the eye can use in the middle of the day. It’s also very hard to compare glass unless you have the scopes mounted, lined up next to each other and can compare them side by side under less than ideal conditions. Because this isn’t possible for most people, we go by word of mouth. Because it’s so subjective, even people that have a few scopes to test side by side may see something different than another person. Like I said, subjective! I recently had the opportunity to test 12-14 scopes side by side and the results were very telling(Athlon, Zeiss, Kahles, Bushnell, S&B, Vortex, Delta, Leopold, Trijicon, Nightforce, AIM sport). Regardless of the scopes you have to use, I suggest you try it sometime, it’s the best way to compare and contrast the optics, turrets, reticle, etc... I’m not going to share here because it would probably start a war! 😆 I will say this though...Almost all of us doing this test could clearly tell the difference between the best and worst scope. However, if the scopes were not tested side by side, it was almost impossible to put the others in order from best to worst. This kind of testing just needs to be done under adverse conditions, not in the middle of the day! Telling the difference in the reticles, turrets, zero stops and eye piece adjustments was very easy though!

My point of this post was to simply share some information so that many of you that ask about scopes here on AGN can have a little more information before you buy a one. I just pulled some brief articles, write up’s or reviews that I though might be helpful.

Another couple of great resources are reviews by Joe Wayne Rhea of Cyclops Videos on You Tube and The Dark Lord of Optics(DLO) who makes optics review videos on You Tube. Both of these guys are honest and accurate! 

Two very good websites to check out if you want to learn about optics are Sniper’s Hide and Accurate Shooter. These sites are frequented by shooters who are willing to pay for and use high quality optics. Visiting these sites will give you a great idea of the scopes that competitors, law enforcement, military, long range enthusiasts and very serious shooters are willing to spend their hard earned money to buy.

Have a great evening. Stoti



JOE WAYNE RHEA — CYCLOPS VIDEOS — YOU TUBE

DARK LORD OF OPTICS (DLO) — YOU TUBE

Accurateshooter.com

snipershide.com

http://www.revicoptics.com/research/

http://www.light-op.co.jp/english/

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/08/13/tactical-scopes-mechanical-performance-part-1/

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/07/01/tactical-scopes-optical-performance-field-test-results-part-1/

https://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=122

https://highpoweroptics.com/optics-tutorial/

https://www.steiner-optics.com/glossary/riflescopes-glossary

https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/hunting/understanding-riflescope-brightness-misconceptions/

http://opticscamp.com/content/1-shipping

https://www.gohunt.com/read/optics-101-the-science-of-glass#gs.v8p6t1




 
Just b damn sure they aren't paid sponsored and actually buy their own scopes with their own money to be fair.

My suggestion is to always always always buy at least 20 at a time and first hand experience do side by side all back to back to cack to back amd just return the ones that aren't clear all the way to max power. Not like you actually spending 20k - $30k because you plan on keeping only the 1 or 2 your eyes like the most and refund the rest.

Dont get ripped paying full price too unless they are truly worth paying full price for and honestly IMHO 95% aren't worth paying full price for. 

Thing that bugs the hell outa me is I fell for the recommended scopes based on Hollywood video reviews that were full of crap at max power of course I returned them for refund.
 
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The real issue is just how good does a scope have to be. And that one is hard to answer for certain. IF ??? a person could answer that and then shop he would have a chance.
For me since I almost exclusively varmint hunt and shoot targets in good light the glass quality is of less importance . I spend about $1000 on scopes for my varmint rifles because I’ve been disappointed in the $500 scopes with respect to their mechanics. For air rifles I spend about $500 if we are talking high quality PCP’s. I’m not going to discuss springers because that’s an entirely different subject. I don’t shoot high power springers . Frankly the real expensive stuff (meaning 3 or 4 k ) is nice but not necessary for my use. If I was hunting big game and spending large bundles of cash to do that and potentially needing perfect glass I could see the true need. That takes me back to trying to figure how much you need . I happen to like leupold but only because it’s what I grew up. I have no doubt other scopes just as good.
There are really inexpensive scopes which are probably good enough for many air gunners. The Alpha 6 comes to mind. I don’t think anyone would be disappointed in the quality of the glass. I don’t trust the mechanics but that is prejudicial on my part. If it’s too good to be true there is usually a reason. I’m skeptical on bargain anything’s.
Everyone’s situation is different. Buying the best you can afford. Buy once cry once applies to scopes . One thing for certain in my 45 years of shooting the quality of scopes has improved dramatically. Getting back to that original question how much is good enough. Hard to say isn’t it? 
 
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Odoyle you have to know that damned few of us can buy 20 scopes at a time even if we anticipate returning all but two if them. I’m not without and in fact fortunate but my wife does on occasion check the bank and or credit card accounts. A guy has to sleep some time and if I bought 20 scopes I’d have to sleep with one eye open or a guard dog at my side. The dog likes her better so I’m screwed . LOL but my point that buying in the quantities that you do is not reality. BUT we do appreciated your input from your experience.
 
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Odoyle, I always (well, almost always) value your input but you're out of touch with what MOST of us can afford to do. Hell yeah, I always order 20 scopes at a time & 15 airguns at a time when I buy - NOT! I'd love to be able to shoot with a $1900 scope some time just to see if they ARE worth the extra bucks. I keep my criteria for scopes pretty simple. A) Do I like the reticle, B) Crisp & bright glass - even at full magnification, C) Do the turrets distinctly "click" & always adjust exactly back to starting point (zero) D) Side focus (I hate AO scopes- like Stoti says, "SUBJECTIVE "). I only have 3 scopes now, Hawke Sidewinder 6x24x56 sfp, Discovery VT-T, 4.5x18x44 ffp and a Vector Veyron 3x12x44 ffp. They all do what I ask of them & work great for me. I've not paid more than $325 for a scope EVER & am perfectly happy being ignorant of what a 2K scope can bring to the table. I really don't believe that a scope of that price range would make me any better of a shooter than I am now. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss, in my case, anyway. Stoti, thanks for the post & insight! 
 
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Leupold is worth the price of admission. Cheaper Zeiss I posted recently DEMO can't be beat you gotta spend twice that to match it's awesomeness.

Crimson Trace from MidwayUSA is a REAL NO BRAINER *FREE* try it you like it 90 day return *FREE RETURN* TOO.

I DON'T PUSH ANYTHING THAT DOESN'T HAVE GREAT VALUE FOR THE MOBEY SPENT NOR ANYTHING WITHOUT A LIFETIME WARRANTY UNLESS OFFERED 4 REALLY DIRT CHEAP LIKE THE BARRAS. THATS WHY I DON'T EVEN PUSH MY MARCH AND NIGHTFORCE AND YRACT TORIC SCOPES I BUY BASED ON COST TO VALUE RATIO BUT I THINK MARCH ARE THE BEST.
 
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Odoyle, I always (well, almost always) value your input but you're out of touch with what MOST of us can afford to do. Hell yeah, I always order 20 scopes at a time & 15 airguns at a time when I buy - NOT! I'd love to be able to shoot with a $1900 scope some time just to see if they ARE worth the extra bucks. I keep my criteria for scopes pretty simple. A) Do I like the reticle, B) Crisp & bright glass - even at full magnification, C) Do the turrets distinctly "click" & always adjust exactly back to starting point (zero) D) Side focus (I hate AO scopes- like Stoti says, "SUBJECTIVE "). I only have 3 scopes now, Hawke Sidewinder 6x24x56 sfp, Discovery VT-T, 4.5x18x44 ffp and a Vector Veyron 3x12x44 ffp. They all do what I ask of them & work great for me. I've not paid more than $325 for a scope EVER & am perfectly happy being ignorant of what a 2K scope can bring to the table. I really don't believe that a scope of that price range would make me any better of a shooter than I am now. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss, in my case, anyway. Stoti, thanks for the post & insight!
Click to expand...

Buy what you like as long as you get the BEST DEAL POSSIBLE don't pay full MAP price (dealers earn double their money) ALWAYS SHOP SMART buy from return friendly dealers.

MidwayUSA has the most friendly return policy. Nothing 2 lose no BS DVOR and Optics Planet RETURN BS..
 
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With a low budget have 4 friends do a group buy. This one is worth it 4 cheap. Even Stoti was blown away buy this one.

https://m.alibaba.com/amp/product/60779335828.html

Or pay $390 for it from the local USA vendor.

That's IF YOU MUST GO FFP. Glass Almost as good as the SWFA SS (thats not saying much because they ain't all that optically to begin with)

Prefer cheap as possible since they DON'T have Lifetime Warranty anyway.

Stay away from most other Discovery scopes only a select few are CLEAR all the way even in the same class.
 
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Thanks for the scope post Kev, its about time we got over some of this one sidedness with regards to scopes, including cheap ass (Alpha-6), mid grade (Athlon Midas TAC), and high end (March, SB, NF, Kahles, etc). SOME Chinese scopes are better than SOME Japanese scopes - FACT! Yep, I just said it! Think about it, your iPhone is made in China. So we all know that if given the correct materials, process, and specifications, they can build things just as good as anywhere in the world...

I can see YoDoyle's point about buying 20+ scopes at a time, and if you're retired, have no other hobbies, and nothing better to do, that might be an option (personally I'd rather be out shooting). Unfortunately, most of us don't work that way. We depend on good honest reviews by people that have actually looked through and used the scopes. Parroting on AGN what others have said about scopes doesn't really do anyone any good. If you've owned the scope, or used it for more than 5 minutes, by all means add in your opinion. Tell us how it worked on the gun, when you used it for target shooting, hunting, or even competition. Pulling it out of the box for a two minute spin around the block doesn't really cut it. And like @stoti says, unless you are comparing side by side, viewing the same thing, in less than ideal conditions, the Clarity, Color, and Contrast review is totally subjective. 

Again, thanks Kev for breaking the ice on this topic, this bashing of scopes without factual backup can be irritating I know. Like the statement about the Delta not having a transferable ten year warranty. Totally not true. Yes, it is ten years, but it is transferable to the next owner. Or the statement about the Trijicon and Delta being exactly the same. Again, not true, and if they had been compared side by side the reviewer would have known the Delta has similar optics as the Trijicon, but the turrets and reticle on the Delta are clearly better. Anyway, good post, I'm sure we all appreciate it... 

Mike
 
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Appears there is more than one opinion. Interesting... But still, opinions so subjective. And also we don’t know if the Delta opinion above is the latest version or an older one since the forum post is almost three years old. That’s why actual reviews like Joe’s are much better than opinions from people we don’t even know own either scope. I didn't see an actual review or comparison above, only forum biased opinions. I’d love to see an actual comparison from someone that has used both side by side...
 
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Good post Stoti. Scopes have become one of the most marketing driven consumer products next to tennis shoes. At this point you can't tell how much of a scope is made where. Even in the US only 50% of the parts have to be manufactured in the US. Of those parts made in USA they are all allowed 50% of their parts to be foreign. So by the time you get done with everyone's 50% you don't have much of anything made in the US. Most other countries like Japan or Philippines etc. are similar to be branded as made domestically.

So the country of origin has been diluted to a minimum of actual parts in the making of a product. Even a lot of the actual assembly can be downgraded with subassemblies from other countries. The question is from scope to scope who is getting what from where? You can't audit the manufacturer so you are left to rely on their marketing, which is just a tad conflict of interest for acquiring accurate information. As Odyle brought up you have all these companies paying people to review their products favorably. 

Basically we are reduced to twisting knobs, looking through glass, doing the tracking square and shooting some targets. God forbid if we go look at high profile reviews. We have no clue if our $2000 scope was 35% profit or 75% and just a dazzling brand name awareness or marketing program. With small companies like Aim Sports or Barra etc with zero marketing or corporatism putting out amazing quality for a couple hundred bucks it really makes you seriously wonder. The marketers have managed to triple the price of a great scope in the last 10 years with the tacti-cool razzle dazzle Xmas tree marketing programs. Every man for himself out there for scopes. 
 
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I think you nailed it! Things are very subjective when it comes to scopes! What one likes someone else hates. And we all have different needs. My needs are for hunting/pesting out to 120yds normally and maybe plinking out to 200yds. Do I need the most expensive scopes on the market to shoot that? Absolutely not. Others who are competing where the tiniest difference can be a loss or win I can see that being worth it. I'll sit back and watch this thread. I'll admit I'm an Athlon fan and have had multiple scopes that I've been very happy and impressed by, from glass to turrets and function, and having great customer service and warranty that I'm loyal to them. 

Plus reticles are very much a personal thing. Looking for around $1000 scope I looked at alot of different ones and man they are so different. There wasn't very many I liked but I'll admit I'm very picky about them.
 
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Dairyboy, I totally agree, everybody likes something different and there are so many great scopes available these days, It’s awesome for us shooters! What we want to spend or choose to use on what guns is totally different too. I’ve said it before, I’m willing to pay for quality air gun scopes because I use these air guns the most by far. I’d rather spend on a scope that I’m using than one that sits in the safe unused. When I recently had the opportunity to test a lot of these scopes side by side, I had the chance to test out a Cronus gen.1 for the first time. I’ve seen Steve123 mention the new Cronus a few times and now see why. The gen.1 was pretty darn sweet and the guy who brought it said he also had the new Cronus on a different gun he didn’t bring. He said it’s awesome! We tried to kind of group the scopes we were testing by price(sort of) and the Cronus was best in it’s little group. Turrets, reticle, image, tracking, fit/finish etc... Athlon is making some great scopes, no doubt. 

Stoti
 
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That is what a person should do,get options and opinions from a lot of sources and hopefully can test the scope out before buying it.

There are certain brands that have great history and are safe bets.....

I usually buy used,and buy something I know beforehand is good......forgetabout what a deal,for who and how much.

I remember years ago there was a list of all the springer rated scope and in what price range,now that was a great list to have.....

I only remember Bushnell Elite and some Burris and.....darn forgot where I put that list.....

Good subject and some good advice,Thanks.


 
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