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Gas Piston versus Spring

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    Deleted Account
    Accuracy: +0

    Don’t see why a NP that had quality workmanship wouldn’t do just as well? Haven’t had mine long enough…let alone their being around long enough to have acquired that many shots as yet. So we’ll see how it all works out!?

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    JoeWayneRhea
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    Accuracy: +245

    Union if anyone can do it you can !! No doubt :).  Sorry one too many cans of oil in me :)

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    Deleted Account
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    I could use a couple cans myself…and I quit smoking 3/3/17, but could use a cig with those cans. I’m also thinkin’ up ways a handicapped shooter can get out there in the fields again. I’ll show it when all is ready.

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    ironlion269
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    (saunters in and picks up the mic Joe dropped)…OK, first thing’s first: Joe, you are a rockin’ sock’em steely-eyed missile man and there just ain’t no gain-sayin’ your comments about the fabulousness of your German steel.  The brilliance of the counter-balanced shot cycle in your FWB 300s, and the workmanship to make that brilliant design come to life, is the culmination of centuries of experience, experiment, and excellence.  See?  Now you’ve gone and made me go all alliterative here!

    Now comes “the rrrrr-Rest of the story”, as Paul Harvey was wont to say.  The Theoben gas spring came along less then 50 years ago, and the real explosion in gas spring use among air gun manufacturers has been much more recent than that.  There is no comparable design among the gas spring guns to match the high-end steel springers you champion, much less a readily-available gun marketed to mooks like me.  Sure, there are superior gas springers out there in the hunting arena but nothing I know of to stand toe-to-toe with the FWB 300 or Diana 75 in pure target precision.  And, to reiterate a point I think is fundamental to this thread, the high end springers, whether steel or gas, are very pricey to the average gal or guy getting into airgunning for the first time.

    The OP is the only one who knows whether saving up for an heirloom gun is the preferred course of action, or looking at a lower-cost air gun that requires less investment of capital while still delivering a quality shooting experience.  Using nothing more than some very moderately priced gas spring air rifles I have discovered a deep passion for airgunning and want to inspire that same kind of joy in and commitment to principled air gun shooting in others entering this sport.  I believe that for many new airgunners, perhaps even a slight majority, it is important to recognize that the threshold for entry into the air gun arena doesn’t have to be dauntingly high.

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    JoeWayneRhea
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    Great point Bro !!! And thanks for the compliment

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    Goodtogo
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    There are a number of kits to change some springers to gas ram. And you can find reviews of the swaps. I even got one for one of my springers that I’ve had for years. But since the spring still works fine the gas ram kit is still on the shelf with some of my other bright ideas. ;)

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    Windmill01
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    Eloquently put iornlion, eloquently put.

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    Jonnes
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    +1 Ironlion, well said. Although a FBW300 or a Diana 75 (and the likes) are most excellent rifles, I’m not sure if I would recommend one of those as a first time springer or a WTSHTF/hunting/bug-out tool. I would prefer something easier to maintain and less susceptible to dirt and moister. A HW30S, HW77 with open sights and the option to mount a scope on it are keepers also and are quite easy to work on. And I can’t stress this enough, if you get into air gunning (or shooting in general), start unscoped and learn to shoot open sights with a springer (regardless if it’s gas ram or spring powered). You’ll thank yourself later on.

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    ironlion269
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    +1 Jonnes.  Learning the fundamentals of shooting, from open sight use to trigger control and all the rest, is of primary importance.  Or even re-learning in the case of long-time powder burner enthusiasts who come to airgunning without an understanding of the key differences between the two shooting worlds.

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    Deleted Account
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    Well, there are some​ differences between firearms and air arms, they are basically the same in shooting them. save for the forearm hold. I’ve shot firearms for several decades, along with a BB gun and pellet guns. Targets, plinking, and hunting. So to me, at least, it was just a matter of getting the help of a group of doctors to get out of these chairs to git-r-done once more. Funny how fast your memory returns?! It’s all a matter of adopting to a given situation…

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    Jonnes
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    The key to good shooting is repeatability and predictability, once you’ve got the hang of that, it’s just like riding a bike. You’ll never forget how to do it. The beauty of learning to shoot (or maintaining the skills) with a springer, is the simple fact that they are extremely hold sensitive, and even the slightest change in hold will result in a miss. As a matter of fact, all guns are, only springers show a difference in hold immediately! I used to be a special weapons trainer in the army, and at some point I noticed that people who learned shooting with spring powered air rifles (some even decades ago!), had the tendency to achieve great results faster and shoot way more accurate than people who where more experienced in firearms. And those differences show especially well at long range. Yes, rimfire or center fire rifles are hold sensitive also, although some might disagree with me. Gas ram rifles, and PCP’s in particular, make shooters lazy IMHO. Although I train 3 times a week (mostly Olympic shooting disciplines like 12 and 50 meter small bore rifle, and 10 meter air rifle), I frequently grab one of my springers (again, with open sights!) and shoot with them in my garden or in the woods with friends at least every other day. Just to make sure I maintain my skills. And the beauty of it all, it’s cheap, and a hell of a lot of fun of course!

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    ironlion269
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    @jonnes, now THAT is a point regarding steel springs that I had not considered: the increased challenge of hold sensitivity leading to superior shooting habits.  Brilliant!  I will have to give that some serious consideration when next I consider adding to my family of springers.  I may not have a “competitive spirit” (a-hem) like some on the forum, but I do want to become the best air gunner I can.  You’ve just given me an excuse to begin planning my next covert purchase of a gun.  Now, to find a place in my man cave to stash it so that she won’t find out about it for a while… :)

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    Jonnes
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    Sometimes the simplest things can lead to the best results. ;)

    Competitive or not, we all eventually want the same and that’s putting lead on target as accurate as possible. Regardless if you’re military, law enforcement, a plinker, hunter, or a target shooter, being as accurate as possible is what we all strive in the end. That’s why I always advice people to get into air gunning with spring powered rifles, even if they already own a PCP or powder burner, and that’s why I’ve always owned one (or more) for the past 30+ years, and will continue to own one (AT LEAST!) for (hopefully) more decades to come. 

    Oh, and with regard to the wife, I told her that those springers are a hell of a lot cheaper to shoot than my powder burners (especially with the ammo prices these days), so it will pay back itself in no-time. No lies in that, so you can still look her in the eyes when you pick it up.  ;) 

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    Windmill01
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    Bwaber are you out there mate? Have the respondents on this forum answered your questions? Last question then I’ll leave you alone, have you bought your airrifle yet. If so to all of these happy plinking. 

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    Chachoze
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    So it makes me wonder why wouldn’t a gas spring be just as accurate in a recoilless rifle like the FWB300 or Diana75 for example assuming one was created to fit in it?  If its a matter of moving mass I assume you could reverse the gas spring so the body is stationary and and the rod is what moves minimizing the amount of weight being thrown forward and inf act I think some springers have them that way or visa versa….

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    ironlion269
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    I thought the original Nitro Pistons from Crosman did have the rod oriented to spring forward and drive the piston while the main compression tube was mounted to the rear and remained stationary.  It was the Nitro Piston 2 that reoriented the strut so that the compression chamber, which is the heaviest part of the strut assembly, would now drive forward within the piston providing greater mass in motion and so greater force for the given amount of spring energy.  Or something like that.  Am I imagining all this?

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    Jonnes
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    Those rifles weren’t made for magnum type springs, the FWB and Diana match rifles are delicate precision technology built for a maximum power of 5,5 ft/lbs, you’ll brake it eventually if not immediately. Diana made some air rifles with the recoilless system like the Diana 54 Airking, but those are built from much stronger parts that can handle the forces from medium to high powered springs.

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    Chachoze
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    Those rifles weren’t made for magnum type springs, the FWB and Diana match rifles are delicate precision technology built for a maximum power of 5,5 ft/lbs, you’ll brake it eventually if not immediately. Diana made some air rifles with the recoilless system like the Diana 54 Airking, but those are built from much stronger parts that can handle the forces from medium to high powered springs.

     
    ​I realize this but surely a gas spring could be made to a certain amount of pressure/power, if I recall correctly some of  those theoben gas springs were adjustable, to what degree I’m not sure….

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    Windmill01
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    Chachoze yes you can obtain gas rams at different powers. My trails are rated at 55 kilos. I purchased a 60 kilo ram chasing more power but it was too powerfull for that rifle. It nearly fell apart. Instead I opted for a 50 kilo ram which dramatically incread shooter ability and accuracy.
    You can take your old ram in and have reseated and gassed to your preference. But it seems most people are chasing more power these days.
     

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    Jonnes
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    “Chachoze”

    ​I realize this but surely a gas spring could be made to a certain amount of pressure/power, if I recall correctly some of  those theoben gas springs were adjustable, to what degree I’m not sure….


    But what would the added value be of that? Those recoilless springers will last you a lifetime, I don’t see why you would want to replace something that works perfectly with something that might. Besides, the FWB300S for instance has two springs that are placed in opposite direction of each other so they cancel each other out torque wise. Placing a gas ram piston won’t make it shoot better, only worse.

    The whole gas ram thing is 80% pure marketing, 20% actual benefit, and only in medium to high powered air rifles. In low powered air rifles they make absolutely no sense what so ever. It’s only added weight on the wrong side of the rifle. You have to balance it out again with muzzle weights or thicker barrels to get the balance back where it belongs. No, gas rams in magnum rifles I understand, in low powered rifles, it has no benefit what so ever, only cons!

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