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FIELD TARGET TECH THOMAS FT RIFLE, 1720T SLUG ACCURACY, WEBSITE ANNOUNCEMENT

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Xbowsniper

Xbowsniper

Member
Nov 19, 2017
1,238
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New York, United States
Nation,

In this installment, I briefly describe my new feature on my Thomas Field Target rifle, created by Mike N. I go over and demonstrate the accuracy of my 1720T with my 15 grain slugs. I also am launching sampler packs of my slugs on my website.





https://youtu.be/Ho8GEmfE0yQ



https://www.fieldtargettech.com/







Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 
 
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Flintsack,

Yes. Rules on both AAFTA (USA), and WFTF (International), do not have any rules against it. Both rules state a safe projectile made from lead or similar material. Shape, size, and style are not specified. 

Tom Holland 



Tom:

All AAFTA classes have their own particular rules/requirements and all classes also have COMMON RULES...Regarding ammunition to be used, please see page 17 - last paragraph at the bottom of page...The rule mentions "Any PELLET design".

Techlnically speaking, slugs are not pellets and are considered proyectiles with an ogive, pellets are the traditional Diabolo type proyectiles with a "waist" that have been the tradition since their introduction with smooth bore guns last century...My friends and relatives back in t UK tell me that all Federations (Benchrest, FT and HFT in Europe) discussed this matter and have established that as stated in the rules, the term "Pellets" refer to the traditional DIABOLO shape (proyectile with a waist) and that slugs are not and will not be permitted for the time being.

As of today, the USARB does not allow slugs for 25 m BR either, but for the 2020 Nationals there will be a BR class or maybe more than one where slugs will be permitted, I understand that BR at 100 m is one of them but there may be other. I suggest contacting AAFTA to clarify this issue before showing up to an important match only to be disqualified if what has been said above is true.

Please find included page 17 from the AAFTA common rules for all classes (current 2020 rules)

Best regards,

AZ



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A lead pellet is also defined as a round ball used individually or as shot. The rules, however agreed upon betwern gentlemen on a club level don't define what a pellet is in the afta handbook. Nor in the WFTC rules. We dont follow usarb rules in FT so that's a mute point. As for the international class(WFTF), we self monitor as afta rules don't follow exactly. You certainly can petition your club leadership to have the definition of what is a pellet made clear at this years meeting. I wonder though what your stake is in not allowing slugs to be used in FT? Can you explain/expand on that point?
 
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John:

The rules in all disciplines don't give a more clear definition of what a pellet is because at the time when the rules were established there were no slugs commercially available, diabolo shaped pellets were the standard and the most precise projectiles commercially available and if someone considered shooting the only other alternative (round ball), it would be in the shooter's disadvantage...Rules limit the upper boundaries, not the bottom ones and as stated: A Diabolo has an advantage over a lead ball ...Another example of rules limiting the upper boundary is the HV class where 20 ft./lb. is the maximum power allowed but the rules don't limit shooting this class with less power, it could be shot with a LV gun (12 ft./lb) or a less powerful rifle to the shooter's disadvantage.

I am aware that USARB rules are not followed by FT federations/clubs, I cited this as a consensus of what is happening in other areas shooting airguns...Is is very common that some rules become homologated among sports and airguns are not the exception....ISSF, WFTF, USARB and other federations DO NOT allow slugs in competition.

The enormous advantage of slugs over pellets in trajectory and precision is why Europe banned slugs...I understand that all Europe agreed that a great deal of the FT challenge was coping with wind and estimating distances; the trajectory of a diabolo had much influence in the precise range finding and the international federations considered that shooting slugs would require smaller kill zones among other things. Another consideration was limiting the scope power and/or not allowing parallax range finding to compensate form the projectile's enormous advantages in precision and trajectory. In the end, these issues and other complicated things and they opted for banning slugs for the time being. It hasn't been done here in the US in FT but something needs to be done and it will...As mentioned, USARB took the initiative and for 2020 there will be "slug" classes and the traditional 25 m will continue to be shot with Diabolo shaped projectiles, with this I mean to put in perspective what other disciplines shooting air guns are doing independently of federation.

If your club or any other clubs are allowing slugs, so be it and you might want to take this advantage while it lasts, I wouldn't take advantage of a bogus rule given the enormous advantage in trajectory, precision and wind drift that would make FT much less challenging, to me challenge in equal terms with other shooters is what motivates me to compete. I don't shoot BR 25m indoors because I don't feel the challenge (No wind and other environmental conditions) and if slugs were allowed in 25m BR outdoors I would abandon the discipline.

Regards,

AZ


 
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So you don't like slugs being used because they buck the wind better than a wasp waisted pellet. Do you use jsb/aa heavies, monsters or beasts? How about the H&N sniper series? None have waist or skirt but are cylinders with a flared tail. Should these be outlawed because they don't match the definition you use for a pellet? 

As for usarb I will say again I don't participate in BR so I don't care about thier rules. As for the European FT disciplines the only thing they have in common with FT in America is the equipment. Thier rules and course of fire have little if any similarities to our game(I've shot at a FT club in England).

The WFTC is not European WFTF and as such has thier own rule book.

As for AFTA I've spoken with multiple BOG members about the use of slugs over the past two years and was told they are fine for now but if they become overly dominant the rules will be adjusted.

For now, slugs are legal in sanctioned AFTA events as well as the WFTC until specifically stated otherwise. 


 
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John:

Your replies indicate some degree of bigotry, you are taking it personal and not understanding the concept behind what is being said and are not open to a constructive positive discussion, re-read my posts and understand the CONCEPT of what is said...It is about what is being done in other countries and in other disciplines and why it is being done.

It is not what I like or what I use, it is not about whether you care or not about what other federations are doing regarding slugs, this discussion is about keeping a sport/discipline attractive and challenging to existing and new participants...If slugs are allowed then why not allow laser range finding, any kind of straps/rests, any shooting position/aids, etc.

I don't make or relax the rules and I didn't decide to ban slugs in competitions around Europe, I posted the information that I got first hand from people who are members part of the boards and who shoot in European countries: UK, Spain-Germany and Portugal...The consensus for banning slugs is that relaxing the challenges to what the sport is in its present configuration is the best way to kill FT and I agree with this...You may not agree with the consensus and this is OK, I am not here to convince you or anyone.

Given the controversy, I will no longer participate in this thread as I don't have anything else to add...You stay safe and enjoy your FT shooting.

AZ
 
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Nation,

I do know there is some debate upon the use of slugs in many different types of airgun competition, but some things do need to be clarified. In Europe, it seems that the issue has been addressed, and slugs, proper, are specifically not allowed. No problem. 

AAFTA rules, the way I see them, and interpret them, does not specifically state NO SLUGS. The rule stated above, taken directly from the AAFTA rulebook, states "Any design of pellet made of lead.......". I translate "Any design of pellet", to include a solid projectile. That's my interpretation, and, have inquired and asked a good deal of officials in AAFTA the same, and their interpretation was the same as mine.

I do realize that they are not allowed in benchrest. My original vision was to use these in AAFTA Field Target competition, and hopefully find one that works in a 12 ft lb platform. I've had just OK success with that. 

Realizing that sometime down the road, they will be allowed in benchrest, I'll have these little rockets tweaked to perfection, for their one day inclusion into benchrest, which the gentleman above stated that there will be a class for it in the future......I'll be ready.

As many of you know, I have been a world class Field Crossbow competitor for many years, recently retired. Back in my beginning days of competition (early 90's), one size arrow and weight was used. Not because of any rule prohibiting it, it just what was TRADITIONALLY used and done. Aluminum arrows had a finite life in the crossbow world, due to their abuse, and use. Any size or construction of a production arrow, available to all, was allowed, yet everyone used that one size of aluminum arrow, due to the width of their track, that the arrow rested on.

Along comes me. I decided after I was in the sport for a while, I'd push the boundaries. I used the largest diameter arrow made, and destroyed the US National and World Indoor records......twice. The "Traditionalists" did not like that, so rules were implemented limiting arrow diameter considerably smaller than what I used. I never shot those arrows ever again.

I then decided to push the limits in a different way......go to a different design of arrow, the aluminum/carbon mix. I now went and acquired the SMALLEST diameter arrow, and a material that no one used. The other competitors said I couldn't use that material of arrow, not because of rules prohibiting them, but it just wouldn't work.

After smashing my own National and World Indoor record AGAIN, some competitors protested that arrow, even though it was legal by the rules. Their attempt was shot down, and I continued using those arrows up to my last competition. 

Based on that lesson above, it seems people do not like, nor accept change, particularly when beaten by another competitor, and will do everything they can in their power to stifle them. I just wouldn't let them. When they said I couldn't do this, I did it. When they said I couldn't do that, I did that as well.

When the World Championships come to the US, I will God willing, be able to shoot it. And yes, I will use a "diabolo " style pellet.. But when rules are more clearly defined, and shooting disciplines are more accepting to slugs, proper, I'll be ready.

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 


 
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Not agreeing with your point of view isn't bigoted. Not caring about a sport I don't participate isn't bigoted. Be careful with your words. 

I'm not misunderstanding your concepts, I simply don't agree. That's not bigoted

Telling another shooter not to be suprised if he gets turned around at the matches he plans to attend is irresponsible and intentional or not spreading misimfomation. That's the part I take a bit personal.

No need to respond, and keep up the 250 25x.
 
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"Any design of pellet that is completely made of lead, lead alloy, zinc, zinc alloy, or similar all-metal material may be used."

AAFTA does not specify that it must be a round, diabolo, cylindrical, or any other specific pellet shape.

"any design" does not mean "diabolo only"

Though a traditional diabolo might be the most common shape of pellet, "pellet" does not infer a particular shape, and pellets are available in many different shapes.

People often interpret a rule to be what they would like it to be, regardless of what it says. Take rules for what they actually say and don't try and extend them beyond that.

"...enormous advantage of slugs over pellets in trajectory and precision..." 

That is not true for airguns in the 12fpe to 20fpe range.



.




 
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Scotchmo, 

Couldn't have worded it better. 

Also, one of the driving factors of my slug endeavors, is, practically every brand, weight, style, and head diameter are not consistent within the same tin. With that in mind, I decided to make my own. Due to the design of the press, and dies, a diabolo pellet cannot be made without extreme expense ($10-15000+ for a diabolo set of dies). I was initially drawn to this slug project just for the purpose of consistent projectiles each time, EVERY time. Don't have to weigh them. Don't have to check headsize for them. Don't have to worry about skirts with them. Make the perfect projectile, shoot perfect projectile. This was the main reason for this project, not because they buck the wind, or similar statements, I didn't realize that until much later. If a company can make a pellet that needs none of the above sorting techniques, I'd use it tomorrow. There is not one company that has been able to do that, thus my ongoing efforts. 



Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 
 
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"AAFTA does not specify that it must be a round, diabolo, cylindrical, or any other specific pellet shape."any design" does not mean "diabolo only

Scotchmo:

I posted the page as written in the AAFTA rules and this speaks for itself...What I mentioned is that when the rules were set, there were no slugs commercially available, the only two proyectiles were either a pellet or a round ball and out of the two the most precise would be the pellet. Rules the same as laws are written with what is available at the time when these are made a rule or a law...Since slugs were not available at the time, slugs were never considered to be used and this is why Europe benned slugs with FT in its present configuration, this doesn't mean that maybe in the future the game will be modified and slugs will be legal...Period! I didn't say what I want it to be, to me slugs or pellets are transparent, I can shoot either and will shot whatever the federations require/allow.

I said: "…enormous advantage of slugs over pellets in trajectory and precision…"  and you responded: That is not true for airguns in the 12fpe to 20fpe range...Well, I don't speak about things that I don't know for a fact and I just happen to be one of those persons who DON'T LIE!...Even though I said I would not participate any further in this thread, your challenge motivated me to do it...I put my money where my mouth is and I challenge you to shoot any of your guns at any power level up to 20 ft./lb. using pellets at all distances from 10 to 50 meters vs. my HV gun set at 20 ft./lb. using slugs...We will be measuring precision, trajectory and wind drift....And yes, I stated that the slug will outperform in all 3 categories any pellet of the same mass (weight) 

I am not a hustler....Before you answer, please research what my gun shoots and has shot with pellets and then add a pretty good amount of precision to those records...I am making you aware that I have already tested this gun with slugs to more than the 55 meters max distance shot at FT (I tested it at up to 100 Meters)

I am AZ and you can find the records of this HV gun shot it my hands at the USARB site (Look at: HV Outdoor records, 2018 HV Nationals, 2018 HV Outdoor season below...Then please tell me in this very same thread your conditions and when and how much $$ we will put into the challenge so you can prove that my statement is NOT TRUE.

USARB Outdoor HV Records: https://www.usairriflebenchrest.com/records/ (Registered targets- shot in competition and cards verified by the Federation)

USARB 2018 Nationals: https://50b9c567-07ff-499f-9d06-6b4a68fcabeb.filesusr.com/ugd/d18f45_1307198023f6414ca9885a596af999cd.pdf

Note: The photo below are the first 5 places as we ended after the 2018 season (National Rankings 2018 season)...12 matches -12 1st places in HV and fisrt place overall also in LV - 1st place in both classes) ...You will be able to see that during the season, my gun shot 348 consecutive 10's (13 consecutive 250's outdoors) before the valve O ring failed and this was shooting matches OUTDOORS with much wind, twice with snow and once with heavy rain...I believe this is an all time world record in any shooting discipline (air or powder burner) and so may be the HV outdoor US National record but I may be wrong and you may know better.

In 2019 I only participated in 2 tournaments: The Saguaro Invitational and the very Prestigious Saguaro Classic, I won 1st place in both tournaments and my scores were the highest scores shot in both...I invaded the Open Class and beat them as I said, in both tournaments...I also shot 100 M with a .30 gun when a friend decided not to shoot and I also finished in 1st place tied with Jack Mercer...So I am ready whenever you are!

Regards,

AZ

PS. Apologies accepted...



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"AAFTA does not specify that it must be a round, diabolo, cylindrical, or any other specific pellet shape."any design" does not mean "diabolo only

Scotchmo:
...I put my money where my mouth is and I challenge you to shoot any of your guns at any power level up to 20 ft./lb. using pellets at all distances from 10 to 50 meters vs. my HV gun set at 20 ft./lb. using slugs...We will be measuring precision, trajectory and wind drift and yes, I stated that the slug will outperform in all 3 categories any pellet of the same mass (weight) ...
Click to expand...

azuaro,

If that were true, we would see more people using slug pellets in USA FT.

I use .177 AA 10.3gr Diabolo Field Heavy in my 20fpe FT rifle. If you can show me a .177 slug pellet at 20fpe that has a superior trajectory, and at least equal in precision and wind drift, I would want to use it. And if the slug also outperforms in wind drift and precision, I'll switch instantly.

The AA 10.3gr will be the baseline for comparison. So that sets the pellet mass for the comparison. I can only find one .177 slug in the 10gr-11gr grain range. If accurate, it might be a contender. What slugs do you intend to compare to me shooting the AA10.3gr?
 
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"I use .177 AA 10.3gr Diabolo Field Heavy in my 20fpe FT rifle. If you can show me a .177 slug pellet at 20fpe that has a superior trajectory, and at least equal in precision and wind drift, I would want to use it. And if the slug also outperforms in wind drift and precision, I'll switch instantly."

No Scotchmo, that is not how it works...Under other circumstances I would've gladly gave you the information and assistance but you really infuriated me....You told me that "I accommodate things in a way to suit what I want and you called me a liar" and I don't take crap from anyone....

Either apologize here in this thread or accept the $$$ challenge...Put some big $$$ in the hands of Michael, the owner of this forum (and if I win as I will, I will donate the proceeds to AGN for maintenance expenses) and this is how I will show you what you are asking...And as a bonus, if you put really big money (around $10-15K or more, you set the upper limit) I will even give you the swagging dies and a very expensive press to manufacture those .177 slugs...

I'm afraid that if you don't apologize or accept the challenge I can call you a big mouth coward?...I will really like to move on to more productive things I like to do like assisting people who have issues or people who may need advice. People like you abound in these forums, people who don't have the capacity to discern and understand concepts for a productive discussion and a productive output, you are just a big mouth with a big wanabee ego hiding behind the Internet insulting people. 

If I could give you some advice: "A Gentleman never offends by mistake"...I am one of them. 

AZ

PS. I sign AZ, this is my alias legal registered name for convenience, call me this way.
 
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