Effort to shoot slugs accurately in an air rifle

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Yeah because calling it pellet guns implies they were only designed to shoot pellets. Sure theres many of those and yeah they would probably not shoot well.

However times have changed and many guns are designed with this in mind. Gauntlets, avengers, edguns, daystate, fx etc. Calling them air rifles opens up to a more honest response more reflective of current state of air guns. All IMO of course.

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I don't think I can agree with that. Lol if people are really swayed to answering honestly if someone says pellet gun vs air rifle then those people likely have other issues to deal with and how do you know if there answering honestly at all either way? I'd also venture to say still the majority of airguns are designed to shoot pellets first with some recently also for slugs being possible and also very much capable of shooting them very well. But calling them a pellet rifle is now a wrong way to call them?

I think what Centercut is talking about are the pellet guns so to speak. People buying whatever brand of gun and thinking they'll shoot airgun slugs. I don't think FX or Daystate could fall under those as I know they've tested slugs in there guns alot. Matt Dubber and slug barrels and FXs Hybrids. Daystate with the ART team with ART barrels and now the Howler slugs. But say Taipans, Crickets, Vulcans, Uragans, and other brands (not sure why only bullpups are in my head at the moment but I'm blanking lol) I'm sure are designed as pellet guns. Barrels are optimized for pellets. 

Just cause my crappie jig catches bass and bluegill with regularity doesn't mean it can't be called a crappie jig anymore.

I could be way off in my thinking though. I mean no offense or disrespect at all towards you just trying to explain my thinking. 

Same towards you @bandg no offense or disrespect meant. Just explaining my thinking was all.

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No offense taken. It's a very good discussion IMO, and maybe something can be gleaned from it for some shooters. I agree quite a bit with the concept of "fitting" a barrel to a particular slug IF one wants absolute repeatable accuracy for DEDICATED slug shooting. My Condor will not even retain a 12.5 slug in the leade (extremely loose) while my HW97 will not even allow one to enter beyond about halfway in even with extreme pressure (EXTREMELY tight). And air rifles don't have the power reserve that a firearm has to overcome such fit differences. But I still note that SOME air rifles WILL shoot both accurately, and I have at least 3 like that myself (I haven't tested them all and wouldn't unless just out of curiosity). Probably no absolute right or wrong with the issue, just differences.

I believe slugs will always be more challenging because they do not adjust to the size of the barrel the way pellets do. Even with a dished base a slug will not expand as much as a pellet when it gets hit with air. So you need to find a slug that is a reasonably tight but not too tight fit to your bore. Apparently there is a pretty good range of bore sizes. But I also have noted that some pellets come in different diameters and some people sort pellets by head diameter - so it must make a difference there too. Possibly that is betting the head to engage the rifling, I think the skirt always will. But I don't think the impact of head size on pellet shooting is similar to my gun grouping pellets in 1/4 inch and slugs in 1.5-3 inch groups.

I measured the velocity of knockouts in my Avenger and they were only about 20 fps less than JSB heavies - similar weight pellet. So they must be sealing OK but still wouldn't group. I've seen reviews, including one with 25 caliber knockouts in an Avenger, where they shot well - they posted pictures of the groups. I think the reviewer goes by Airgun Angie, if not it is something like that. But she didn't share her settings.

A lot of people do not understand that air resistance is because the air pressure is lower on the back of the object than it is on the front. Pellets are terribly shaped because the hole in the back is not going to see the pressure the nose sees. Dishing the back of a slug hurts it too. I saw one video where Matt Duber was shooting what appeared to be special flat base slugs for a very custom airgun. With an exact fit of the slug to the barrel eliminating the dish would really help the BC. He is a big slug shooter and commented he was surprised these slugs were hitting so hard with no hollow point.

The other change that would make me more interested in slugs is to make the nose solid, like a domed pellet. Air rifles are inherently not nearly as powerful as powder burners. But I have no problem killing squirrels with my little Prod tuned to about 18 ft. lbs. with a simple domed pellet (H&N FTT copper plated). It goes through on most shots and they drop on the spot. I don't need expansion. My 25 Avenger should take them as far away as I can reliably hit them in the vitals. Without expansion. But if I want to brain shoot a bigger animal I really do not want expansion, I want maximum penetration. But if you make a slug solid it may get to heavy to be pushed to a reasonable speed in an air rifle. A powder burner in 25 would drive a 87 to 120 grain bullet to 3000 fps. A powerful air rifle shoots a 35 grain pellet or slug maybe 1,000 fps. Huge difference. 60,000 psi is a lot more than 2-3,000.

While current slugs offer slightly better BC than pellets they are still terrible compared to powder burner bullets. More than an order of magnitude worse. To me, there is plenty of room for improvement. An improvement is necessary IMHO, before they will be worthwhile. The only things that current slugs seem like they could be useful for is target shooting at long range to minimize wind impact and to shoot small targets at a range too far for you to reliably place the shots well. Currently at least, I don't do either of these things.

Thing you just said is basicly what 223/257/308/357/457/510 and many between calibers are doing. Driving pb intended bullets at sub to transsonic speeds. We are there alrdy.. Actually have been for years. This to be said they will never be backyard plinkers, 90%+ of the airgunners find them totally useless since you can always pick up pb if pellet isnt enough. Also when speaking about high energy, high bc projectile shooting long range intended airguns we also hit to a wall really fast what comes to avarage airgunner and thats shotcount. There simply isnt and never will be enough capacity to store enough air on reasonable size airgun that would fill the need of 30+++shots per fill of the avarage Joe.

Current pelletgun intended slugs are actually big stepback what comes to ballistical performance and their only "new" thing is that they are designed around pellet intended guns. 

I got my Impact a year ago. It is only in the last week that I've been able to expect sub-MOA 100 yard 5-shot groups with slugs. I did no real modification aside from polishing the bore.

Much of the last year, however, was spent learning things which you need to know whether you're shooting slugs or pellets: that your hammer preload screw can back out, that single loading can be better than magazine feed, that fine-tuning velocity for harmonic purposes can really shrink groups, that breech O-rings wear out, how to find a tune that works and doesn't have me refilling every 5 minutes, etc. Fixing things I broke. Finding the projectile my rifle prefers. Indexing the liner. Learning the difference between tight enough and too tight. Learning whether cleaning matters (doesn't seem to matter in my liner). And, most recently, refining my bench technique, which has had effects so dramatic that I wonder whether that was the key all along (not quite; I was getting really tight 70 yard groups by a few months ago, but 100 yard shooting demands better bench technique).

All of this work I did with either the pellet liner which came with the gun, or lately with a Superior standard liner, so basically a pellet gun shooting slugs.

[...] And, most recently, refining my bench technique, which has had effects so dramatic that I wonder whether that was the key all along (not quite; I was getting really tight 70 yard groups by a few months ago, but 100 yard shooting demands better bench technique).

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Mike / Khornet,

would you give some details of what bench techniques made such a big difference? Since I'm pretty isolated here in the Peruvian desert from most airgunners, I don't think I even know what a "bench technique" is....  

Is that something other than the "fundamentals of marksmanship" that I've read about in a couple of webpages?



Thanks for helping out with this. My 100 yard groups are not helping my high blood pressure, that's how bad they are.... So, for any help I'd be grateful!

Matthias

touché....

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The main problem with all of this talk is that it’s all quantified by personal anecdote. One mans “laser” accuracy is another mans “Meh”. Group shooting in small cherry picked samples does not represent accuracy in conditions on average.

The game of score shooting benchrest was designed a long time ago to see who could demonstrate the highest degree of accuracy.

You simply shoot 3 or more BR cards and average the score. The average is a single number that is the same number for everyone.

I wondered a long time ago if anyone was getting similar accuracy from slugs compared to pellets. Enough to start a thread on the GTA asking if there were folks out there getting top pellet accuracy from slugs and many answered yes...both in PM and on the thread. At the time, I was certainly NOT getting similar scores...not even close. I asked each of them if they were willing to shoot a few BR cards to create some comparable data. All agreed and I sent them off BR cards. I told the guys to wait for a day when conditions were optimal so they could take their personal wind reading skill out of the equation as much as possible. They all assured me that it would be a piece of cake to shoot a great card on a nice day...in fact they said they could just point at the middle and collect their easy 10 because that’s how accurate and wind resistant their setup was at 50y. 

This was over 6-7 months ago. None of the guys that were eager to show their performance on the BR cards with slugs ever got back to me, despite my checking in on them periodically. I know what this means and it didn’t surprise me one bit. It’s a common scenario if you run or attend BR matches frequently. Every new shooter drastically overestimates his equipments ability if they come from other genres such as FT, plinking, hunting, or forum display shooting.

Bear in mind, that this is 50y BR....not 100y. Results certainly won’t improve with distance. That’s a 100% guarantee.

Do you really want to know how you stack up to pellet shooters? Shoot a few 50y BR cards, and average the score....you will have a number that directly and fairly corresponds to guys all over the world. Based on long time personal experience in this matter....I know that most on the forums do not want to know...or at least they do not want others to know. Precision range BR is not very popular.

If anyone actually cares to shoot a few cards, I will post a target to print.

Mike

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TOUCHÉ....

I enjoy shooting various slugs out of my airgun, and the Benjamin Bulldog was originally designed to shoot the 145gr Nosler slugs well. The biggest benefit I have gained with using slugs is more downrange power, and this is because of increased BC values, and the benefits can be staggering.

1. Shooting a Predator Polymag .357 81gr pellet at 950fps Muzzle Velocity has a 709fps velocity at 100 yards, losing a whopping 72fpe (from 162fpe to 90fpe).
2. Shooting a NSA 142gr .357 HPBT slug at 770fps at the muzzle has a velocity of 716fps at 100 yards, losing only 24fpe (from 186fpe to 162fpe).
3. Using slugs I can gain over 70fpe at 100 yards over a pellet with a similar terminal velocity.
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   I often see people want to move to an airgun with a larger caliber for more power on game. If their current guns can find a slug that shoots accurately, oftentimes that can gain a significant amount of power without another gun purchase.
   
   With that said, my gun shoots Predator Polymags and JSB Exacts more accurately than slugs. In some game, the accuracy loss is of little concern when the kill zone is 5 inches. But in other game, a 3 inch group at 100 yards means you probably will miss your target altogether.
   
   

I had forgot about this thread until Centercut linked it recently in another thread but I thought I'd update my thoughts on this subject.

Remembering back a couple years ago I was thinking at the time that slugs in pcp's were a waist of time and effort. I wasn't completely wrong back then because people were having a tough time finding barrel and slugs combo's that worked well together and when they did find something that was halfway reasonable there would often be flyers which showed something in the system was not quite optimized. Not having an answer to getting the precision I was expecting I shelved the idea of using slugs until things changed in the future.

Shortly after this thread I bought a Uragan King in 25 cal that I got used from a AGN member to compete in speed events using pellets. He had stated that the 29gr NSA slugs shot well in it and sent a partial box with the gun. I had my doubts but I can confirm that he was correct. Of course I can't shoot moa all the time, and I don't know if the rifle can either, but I've shot quite a few 1.25 moa sized groups from 50Y to 200Y. As almost always it is, its the wind that gets us = right, and that was the main problem for me as well using a .075 BC slug?! Compared to the other rifles in the past, and the slugs I had shot in those rifles in the past, this King/29gr combo was impressive because there weren't the large flyers like I'd experienced before. Basically what I'm saying is I was satisfied finally using slugs. Over the summer I had a lot of fun with this gun shooting slugs at long range! I could still hit 7" diamond a fair amount of the time at 300Y which was surprising considering how windy it was when I made my attempts. My mind had changed. Fortunately I didn't do anything to this rifle to tune it, it shot well with pellets at normal distances, and the 29gr slugs at longer distances, just as it came to me!!!

Just mentioning as well that I got my slug barrel for my Thomas HPX named SURELY in October and recently got all the equipment I needed to swage my own slugs. Mike N had already done all the work beforehand which included acquiring the custom swaging die, the perfect sizing button for my barrel, the slug weight that shot best in my barrel, the optimal lube, and the tune of the gun, so I was GTG from the start. MAN, so far this gun shoots these slugs so well its amazing, only putting 150 or so slugs down range I can tell its going to bring a lot more smiles! These 22 cal 42gr slugs are only going 800 fps but they have a .14 G1 BC(remains to be verified a little more and adjusted if necessary) which bucks the wind well compared to the 25 cal 29grslugs in my King and are very close to my 22rf in that regard.

With both the above rifles it does seem that the lower (ES/<15 fps that pcp's can provide), which is less than many types of (22rf ammo/ES 30 fps on the low end but most prevalent much higher for mid grade ammo), gives less vertical at longer distances for my pcp's using slugs which I've seen on nearly every occasion I've shot them on the same steel targets which is very satisfying to see happen.

In contrast neither rifle using pellets even comes close to the small vertical and lower wind drift the slugs give past a certain longer distance. I kinda gave up trying with pellets past 130Y or so because the performance is getting dismal but past 160Y its definitely not worth my effort.

Being not much of a AG tuner - just not my thing, and much more of a AG shooter, I'm glad things worked out like they did for me.

Pellets do seem easier to tune for + more shots! But I haven't had a problem (other than extra cleaning & a little extra time) getting slugs shooting either. Shot most if not all the .25 NSA slugs with good success & now the JSB Knock outs I just tried are super accurate. Both pellets & slugs have there place IMO! I prefer the slugs for hunting & pellets for plinking & pesting.

IMO…as the market is currently sitting, shooting undersized slugs out of choked barrel, is costing a ton of ppl time and money. 
Once that issue is resolved, I think there will be more success. 

Second point? What do ppl consider success?

I gauge success by outperforming pellet accuracy. That’s a pretty tall order, especially under 100y


Pellets are typically a lot cheaper, so if your pesting out to 50-75y pellets are the better option.

The other issue I’ve dealt with is collateral dmg…much as they sell expansion. Most times u get clean pass though. With the energy slugs retain, it’s just something else to consider and worry about. 

IMO…as the market is currently sitting, shooting undersized slugs out of choked barrel, is costing a ton of ppl time and money. 
Once that issue is resolved, I think there will be more success. 

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That's a good point and hope gun/barrel makers will stop making compromises and make true slug barrels with no choke at all. Hell, go borrow some 22LR barrels!! 

HOWEVER, I happened to have good success with FX superior heavy and Slug A liners. Both shoot slugs just as well as pellets, but without choke I believe it can be even better and gain a little muzzle velocity. 

My impact mk2 25cal 700 slug liner A no problem with the nsa slugs. I mainly shoot the 36.2 slugs in my back yard on min power @870fps, but I can shoot them @940-950 on max. Also I have a pulsar 177 that shoots all the nsa slugs and the 13.4 jsb kO seems to shoot them all @ all the factory power levels. Sometimes on min power out of my pulsar @730fps the gun and myself shoot some incredible groups even when the weather conditions are not perfect. The impact did not take a long time to achieve the consistent tune that the gun prefers, so now slugs have been all that I shoot.

I might have found a slug my 25 Avenger will shoot well - by accident. My P35, also a 25, shoots H&N Slug HPs pretty well but I couldn't find them. So I bought a box of NSA 26.8s. P35 does not like them much. 3/4 inch groups at 30 meters. Then I thought of trying them in my Avenger. I need to do some more testing, my home made moderator has started clipping, but I got one 1/4 inch group and several sub half inch groups at 30 meters. I think I need a new moderator or a trip to the range to convince myself one way or the other.

This is not on the original topic but why is it that our guns like some projectiles and dislike others? My Avenger hates H&N FTT pellets, my P35 loves them. My Avenger loves FX 25.4s (regular 1/4 inch groups at 30 meters) but my P35 shoots them into 3/4 to 1 inch groups at the same distance. Same tin of pellets shoot very differently in different guns.

I have not tried it with slugs but I tried different velocity to make some pellets I cast to shoot in my Avenger. I saw very little difference. I get accuracy difference from small hammer spring changes but not velocity changes from moving the regulator. Once the hammer spring is adjusted for the new velocity I get groups about the same size.