Effort to shoot slugs accurately in an air rifle

I have not tried slugs yet in my guns as my range is only 48 yards,, Now if I was going to shoot slugs I agree with the guys on here that I would need a slug barrel to shoot the best, All my guns were designed to shoot pellets, I think it takes a different twist rate in the barrel to have the best shooting slug gun.Now if my range was 100 or 200 yards and further I would be right there with the slug testing but at my range (yard) I just see no reason to, I will list my guns if you have one that shoots slugs PERFECT please list it for me,,, I may be temped when I go to the deer cabin... Thanks

Cricket 22, Mutant 22 , Listone barrel, Veteran 22, Veteran 25, Prophet 25 Slug barrel being made by RTI i think, Uragan 177 , Vulcan 177,

Mike

My stance through this entire discussion has been that without LOTS of time and effort and financial implications (think Mike of Thomas Airguns ordering and machining custom spec'ed barrels and having the equipment to make and try out differently profiled home-brewed slugs or Matt Dubber and his personal FX liner factory sending him whatever spec'ed liner he asks for, and also having the ability to test and make his own Patriot slugs. ), pellets simply shoot more accurately out of commercially available airguns.

And the common claim, or variation thereof, that slugs shoot better at long distances than pellets only holds true if you're talking about a light, low BC pellet (yeah a .22 23grain slug is going to out shoot a .22 14.3gr diabolo-which is mostly related to the started fps-the 14.3gr can only start so fast, and also strips it's energy incredibly quickly).. Get a good long range pellet with a decent BC like a .22 MRD or a 34 gran .25 and most airguns are going to shoot them better than a comparable weight slug, close or far. 

The standard for accuracy and distance for said slugs is? What? MOA or better out to 100 yards? Shooting slugs "well" or, "exceedingly accurate" are not quantifiable statements. Numbers please.

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Excellent point! The standard of slug accuracy should be sub MOA at 100 yards/meters with out adjust for windage in sub 5mph wind. Whole point of slug is long distance and much lower wind drift. 


Another benchmark for slugs shooting “well” is the POI matches exactly with ballistic calculation especially when it comes to wind drift. This indicate the slugs are properly stabilized because a slug that isnt properly stabilized may not achieve the advertised BC or may group well with no wind but falls apart in wind. strelok as the ability to calculate overly stabilized slugs’ additional spin drift but that basically won’t happen with Airguns.



when I said exceedingly well I meant i shot out to 165 yards and it’s right on MOA and better than I can shoot the gun. I’ve only stretched the Maverick out to 100 yards and easy sub MOA and that why I said it shot well. 


again, very good point to scientifically define what we all talking about or the same measuring “standard”. 

For me, it seemed to depend on the caliber. In .177 it was super simple to get slugs to shoot. .22 was about equal to pellets. .25 took some tuning. .30 was about a nightmare but was very rewarding in the end. .35 was the hardest and Im still trying but I think Im going to let it go and stay with pellets for this one since its my close range gun. In .177 slugs, 5 out of 5 barrels Ive tried all shot slugs extremely well and was way easier than pellets. 

The standard for accuracy and distance for said slugs is? What? MOA or better out to 100 yards? Shooting slugs "well" or, "exceedingly accurate" are not quantifiable statements. Numbers please.

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Excellent point! The standard of slug accuracy should be sub MOA at 100 yards/meters with out adjust for windage in sub 5mph wind. Whole point of slug is long distance and much lower wind drift. 


Another benchmark for slugs shooting “well” is the POI matches exactly with ballistic calculation especially when it comes to wind drift. This indicate the slugs are properly stabilized because a slug that isnt properly stabilized may not achieve the advertised BC or may group well with no wind but falls apart in wind. strelok as the ability to calculate overly stabilized slugs’ additional spin drift but that basically won’t happen with Airguns.



when I said exceedingly well I meant i shot out to 165 yards and it’s right on MOA and better than I can shoot the gun. I’ve only stretched the Maverick out to 100 yards and easy sub MOA and that why I said it shot well. 


again, very good point to scientifically define what we all talking about or the same measuring “standard”. 

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I think your expecting more than is possible at this stage of the game. Strelok even has adjustments for bc which is dependent on so many factors that it is never possible to have 1 exact number that is exactly correct for all conditions. As far as wind drift strelok says a 10.6 gr 177 pellet will drift 1 inch in 50 yards and a 12.5 gr slug will drift .3 and this is with a 2 mph breeze!

@solo: I would say it’s not only possible but it’s a reality. Ballistic calculation is very old, reliable, proven and validated for countless times. From personal experience if the slugs are shot with proper stabilization then the advertised BC is spot on and my POI have been spot on from strelok pro calculation as long as I enter the environmental and ballistic info correctly. It’s so dead on is almost unbelievable! However to achieve that the gun, ammo and scope all have be dialed in and validated.



interestingly from my experience the slugs ballistic calculation is a lot easier to calculate/accurate compared to pellets using G1 calculation. slugs have very stable BC numbers through out the speed range(sub sonic) so strelok’s G1 calculation is spot on with just manufacture’s Published BC, I can personally attest to that. Pellets’ BC is a bell curve with mid 800FPS at the top of the bell which is published by the manufacture so unless you are shooting right at 850fps or have labdar to gather precise information in at all distances for the ballistic calculation then it won’t be spot on some of the times.


I’ve shot thousand of slugs and most of the time I don’t shoot for groups, A good group is only the start and to validate my gun’s consistency. Once I achieve sub MOA I would laser range random targets to as far as I can then shoot based on strelok. If I do my part correctly I would score the coveted first shot hit just about every time, getting the system dialed and working isn’t the easiest thing but very doable. The information is out there and easy to find. For me a good group is nice but if I can not connect on my first shot regardless of distance, angle and condition then it’s still useless. 


A lot of people say people like Matt dubber don’t show their missed shots and they probably miss 2-3 times before their hit. However the same people didn’t bother put in the work and try Matt’s system themselves and truly see if he is only showing good shots or not. After watched all his videos on ballistics and followed his instructions I can confidently say he is showing every shot he filmed because with his system I have no issue connecting on the first shot out pass 100 yards even. And when I do miss it’s alway my fault for not inputting correct information or ranged wrong. What he is doing isn’t magic or remotely new, powder burner world have been doing the same thing (even sub sonic) for a very long time. Math can’t lie. 

I think your expecting more than is possible at this stage of the game. Strelok even has adjustments for bc which is dependent on so many factors that it is never possible to have 1 exact number that is exactly correct for all conditions. As far as wind drift strelok says a 10.6 gr 177 pellet will drift 1 inch in 50 yards and a 12.5 gr slug will drift .3 and this is with a 2 mph breeze!

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Well I ran some calculations on my test today and I proved my own opinion wrong. At first I thought the wind drift today was awful and discouraged but after I ran strelok it is so spot on it's ridiculous! Keep in mind I shot at lowly 720-780 fps today. At first glance the wind drift of 2 centimeter or 3/4 of an inch is terrible for 34 yards, it was 3-10 mph but I expected less wind drift because my .22 and .25 slugs shot at much higher speed hardly drifted at all in the wind so expectation was wrong. Ran the numbers through strelok after dinner and to my utter shock the wind drift is supposed to be.........2 centimeters!!! 





Math triumphed over me.......again!

I haven't found but one rifle that needed some type of physical modification to shoot slugs as well as pellets, and that would be my EVOL 30. Every other one of my slug laser beam rifles took varying degrees of effort, an investment in numerous tools, and lots of tinkering to get shooting in ways that satisfied my OCD.

The downside with many of my most accurate barrels is I have to pull patches through them more frequently than I need to shooting pellets. The upshot for me is being able to shoot with my rifles year round in harsh weather conditions, and the best hunting overlaps with the worst weather.

@solo: I would say it’s not only possible but it’s a reality. Ballistic calculation is very old, reliable, proven and validated for countless times. From personal experience if the slugs are shot with proper stabilization then the advertised BC is spot on and my POI have been spot on from strelok pro calculation as long as I enter the environmental and ballistic info correctly. It’s so dead on is almost unbelievable! However to achieve that the gun, ammo and scope all have be dialed in and validated.



interestingly from my experience the slugs ballistic calculation is a lot easier to calculate/accurate compared to pellets using G1 calculation. slugs have very stable BC numbers through out the speed range(sub sonic) so strelok’s G1 calculation is spot on with just manufacture’s Published BC, I can personally attest to that. Pellets’ BC is a bell curve with mid 800FPS at the top of the bell which is published by the manufacture so unless you are shooting right at 850fps or have labdar to gather precise information in at all distances for the ballistic calculation then it won’t be spot on some of the times.


I’ve shot thousand of slugs and most of the time I don’t shoot for groups, A good group is only the start and to validate my gun’s consistency. Once I achieve sub MOA I would laser range random targets to as far as I can then shoot based on strelok. If I do my part correctly I would score the coveted first shot hit just about every time, getting the system dialed and working isn’t the easiest thing but very doable. The information is out there and easy to find. For me a good group is nice but if I can not connect on my first shot regardless of distance, angle and condition then it’s still useless. 


A lot of people say people like Matt dubber don’t show their missed shots and they probably miss 2-3 times before their hit. However the same people didn’t bother put in the work and try Matt’s system themselves and truly see if he is only showing good shots or not. After watched all his videos on ballistics and followed his instructions I can confidently say he is showing every shot he filmed because with his system I have no issue connecting on the first shot out pass 100 yards even. And when I do miss it’s alway my fault for not inputting correct information or ranged wrong. What he is doing isn’t magic or remotely new, powder burner world have been doing the same thing (even sub sonic) for a very long time. Math can’t lie. 

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Wind. 

"Oh but I have a Kestrel and I input the wind speed and direction." 

Good for you. That Kestrel is only telling you what the wind is doing at your position. Put out a couple simple streamers and you'll see that the wind is doing something different about every 15 or 20 yards, all the way to the target. 

High BC projectiles (and by high I mean firearm high, like get rid of the first 0 after the decimal like we're dealing with in airguns, even slugs, ie 0.25 instead of 0.025) can blast through all those variations in wind speed and direction enough to get useable long range info from a ballistic app. But our airgun projectiles are simply too influenced by all of those varying wind conditions to get the "first shot first hit every time," even when using a ballistic app. 

If it was as easy as having all the numbers input correctly into a ballistics app there would be much better scores shot at EBR and RMAC and PA cup. 

Wind my good sir, is the confounding variable in your claims.

I’m a little hesitant to jump on the soapbox and share my two cents as it’s been a humbling roller coaster ride and I’m not sure I’ve earned my slug merit badge just yet but after having an adjustable probe my luck has increased and tapered pin reamers are equally handy in finding something that works. 
Sometimes i think I’ve got something dialed in and the next day it proves me wrong. 

@Franklin: you are correct that wind isn’t the same at the muzzle all the way to the target. That IS part of learning the system and how to make calculated estimate based on grass, mirage and ground features. It’s definitely more art than science at points but the kestrel will give you a good baseline which enables the user to have a good starting point. It is NOT absolute per many reasons you have mentioned. 


My test today is an good but a simpler example. I can feel the wind at where I’m at and I’m guess 2-5 mph because I have a fence next to me, I have a string right above the target but it’s against a rock wall so it’s only by the wall. I then have a weather station 2/3 of the way to target which reads 3-10mph with 5 being average. And then I check weather wunderground and the wind readings from weather stations very close to me. The weather stations basically collaborate with my WiFi weather station with mine being 1-2 mph higher so that’s the number I used to calculate my wind drift. 


you are right, wind is very difficult and it take a lot of learning/experience. I won’t claim I’m an expert by far but I understand how it works and the approach to be somewhat close. Matt did mention the difficulty of the wind and how he used kestrel to help with his solution not just dial exactly unless he believes the wind is relatively consistent all the way to target. 


I don’t use Matt’s system verbatim either because I don’t think some part of his system is necessary, nice to have not not must have. The important part is to leverage his approach and the science behind it. I didn’t come up with my own system by watching him alone, there are a wealth of information on ballistic calculation, wind drift and associated systems out on YouTube. 

@Franklin: you are correct that wind isn’t the same at the muzzle all the way to the target. That IS part of learning the system and how to make calculated estimate based on grass, mirage and ground features. It’s definitely more art than science at points but the kestrel will give you a good baseline which enables the user to have a good starting point. It is NOT absolute per many reasons you have mentioned. 


My test today is an good but a simpler example. I can feel the wind at where I’m at and I’m guess 2-5 mph because I have a fence next to me, I have a string right above the target but it’s against a rock wall so it’s only by the wall. I then have a weather station 2/3 of the way to target which reads 3-10mph with 5 being average. And then I check weather wunderground and the wind readings from weather stations very close to me. The weather stations basically collaborate with my WiFi weather station with mine being 1-2 mph higher so that’s the number I used to calculate my wind drift. 


you are right, wind is very difficult and it take a lot of learning/experience. I won’t claim I’m an expert by far but I understand how it works and the approach to be somewhat close. Matt did mention the difficulty of the wind and how he used kestrel to help with his solution not just dial exactly unless he believes the wind is relatively consistent all the way to target. 


I don’t use Matt’s system verbatim either because I don’t think some part of his system is necessary, nice to have not not must have. The important part is to leverage his approach and the science behind it. I didn’t come up with my own system by watching him alone, there are a wealth of information on ballistic calculation, wind drift and associated systems out on YouTube.

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Just to clarify, are you referring to the wind drift @ 34 yards that you mentioned a couple comments ago? 

My experience was pretty straight. I tried the Varmint knockers in my vulcan 25 and they shot great with little messing around other than cranking hammer spring. I quickly saw a 20 shot count was not going to work I started to look into a used 25 Uragan. Two weeks later I was able to get one in my hands. I ordered Nielson sample pack and found what I can work with. The Varmint knockers shot well too but can't afford them. The Nielson 29.5 .249 flat based slugs were the answer going forward. I ended up replacing regulator with huma regulator because I wanted more plenom space. So Tony set reg at 145 and I'm all set. Been blasting starlings ever since. 

It’s harder with slugs. If Pyramid Air sends you a random 20 guns, all of them will shoot pellets. Three of them will shoot slugs but probably only one will do it maybe as good as pellets. 

I want preface this by stating I'm not hating.. and I do Not want to stir the pot here, but.....

To CC, the OP, I know you know better, you know the Correct answer to your question because you wouldn't be the shooter you are .. 

Therefore I must ask the question , Really ? 

I think there may be an underlying motive to this thread.... Just sayin'....

Yes, I know the answer, and it’s “definitely”, but some either think differently or just want to be ornery. You’re correct. It is common knowledge that it takes more more effort to get a pellet gun to shoot slugs accurately relative to pellets... although it’s a popular topic and we have almost 400 views already.

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Oh I get it amigo, between the 2 threads I have eaten at least 6 lbs of popcorn , shaken my head , laughed my ass off , hell I think i may have even shed a tear...

All in all I give the entertainment factor a 9 out of 10

I personally think if you have the most recent versions of any of the higher powered rifles, you’re going to be able to shoot slugs accurately. It’s just Like choosing the right pellet for A pellet gun. You try all the available sizes and usually at likes one or two much more than the others.

I only had one FX with barrel liners. It was a crown. I found the adjustability of the crown to be a bit of a joke. I always cranked it up to high power and left it there. And I found ways to actually increase the power by tightening that spring.

The impact with the long barrel and a power Plenum is a different story.

The flexibility, and the power that’s available through the newer electronic rifles is night and day. Trying to shoot slugs with an old 30 foot lbs. 22 caliber raw, I think it would be difficult. 


Finding slugs that shoot in a red wolf, not so difficult, especially at 50 or 100 yards. 


It seems to me that the NSA slugs, solve two problems. First of all they’re extremely well-made and consistent. Second, they don’t cost an arm and a leg.

Like anything else, if your barrel likes a given slug it will shoot it well. We also have more options to tune with an electronic rifle.

When I would hand load for powder burners, trying a different powder with a different bullet with a different case all made a difference. Trying the same loaded ammunition that shot really well in my rifle, might not shoot at all well in my neighbors. In fact it may be dangerous because I am setting the bullets to hit the lands.

I would bet I could shoot Decent groups at 50 or 100 yards with most of the slugs I’ve tried. When you move out to 150+ it’s a whole different ball game and stadium. 


mike

I just discovered this thread on AGN — and thought that this will be a lively discussion — requiring a beer by my side.

But in deference to the hour of the day (8 am), I opted for coffee.

To finish the thread required a second cup.





My reactions:

➔ I appreciate all those poster who want to nail things down and quantify them. After all, what is a "MOA gun" (with or without slugs)?

▪1 five-shot group with MOA, out of 10 groups?

▪3 five-shot group with MOA, out of 5 groups?

▪Indoors, or outdoors with sub-5mph steady winds, or swirling winds, or any wind?

▪With or without correcting for wind drift for each individual shot?





  ➔ Looking at my own guns and their MOA capability gives me those faces....

I think for my guns I should reverse the abbreviation for Minute Of Angle, MOA, to the more appropriate AOM.

AOM describes accurately and with precision where most of my slugs hit: AOM = All Over the Map

Well, I'll keep fiddling — or buy something more expensive than what I have when the kids are out of college....


Congrats to the shooters who have a slug shooter. I find it fascinating what these things can do at long ranges or in extreme conditions.





➔ Talking about extreme conditions. The advantages of slugs usually shine at long ranges — due to their high BC they will resist wind drift way better than pellets. And again because of BC they don't slow down so quickly, which means they will fly much further.

However, at short ranges in extreme conditions slugs can still offer an advantage: I'm thinking shooting in high wind or gusty wind conditions. The mountains and the beaches that I'm surrounded by offer plenty of that.... So, I'll keep trying....!





Carry on. Maybe I should replace my coffee mug with a beer bottle now.

Matthias

View attachment National50SmallPractice.1620742315.pdf




The main problem with all of this talk is that it’s all quantified by personal anecdote. One mans “laser” accuracy is another mans “Meh”. Group shooting in small cherry picked samples does not represent accuracy in conditions on average.

The game of score shooting benchrest was designed a long time ago to see who could demonstrate the highest degree of accuracy.

You simply shoot 3 or more BR cards and average the score. The average is a single number that is the same number for everyone.

I wondered a long time ago if anyone was getting similar accuracy from slugs compared to pellets. Enough to start a thread on the GTA asking if there were folks out there getting top pellet accuracy from slugs and many answered yes...both in PM and on the thread. At the time, I was certainly NOT getting similar scores...not even close. I asked each of them if they were willing to shoot a few BR cards to create some comparable data. All agreed and I sent them off BR cards. I told the guys to wait for a day when conditions were optimal so they could take their personal wind reading skill out of the equation as much as possible. They all assured me that it would be a piece of cake to shoot a great card on a nice day...in fact they said they could just point at the middle and collect their easy 10 because that’s how accurate and wind resistant their setup was at 50y. 

This was over 6-7 months ago. None of the guys that were eager to show their performance on the BR cards with slugs ever got back to me, despite my checking in on them periodically. I know what this means and it didn’t surprise me one bit. It’s a common scenario if you run or attend BR matches frequently. Every new shooter drastically overestimates his equipments ability if they come from other genres such as FT, plinking, hunting, or forum display shooting.

Bear in mind, that this is 50y BR....not 100y. Results certainly won’t improve with distance. That’s a 100% guarantee.

Do you really want to know how you stack up to pellet shooters? Shoot a few 50y BR cards, and average the score....you will have a number that directly and fairly corresponds to guys all over the world. Based on long time personal experience in this matter....I know that most on the forums do not want to know...or at least they do not want others to know. Precision range BR is not very popular.

If anyone actually cares to shoot a few cards, I will post a target to print.

Mike