Please help me learn my regulator…..

Forums PCP Airguns Please help me learn my regulator…..

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    Cliff_Allen
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    Thank you in advance to anyone willing to share the knowledge to help me learn my gun! 

    I took my Royale 500 apart the other day just to see the guts and become more familiar with the gun to try to learn. It went back together fine and I shot it today at 53 yards, getting pretty good groups that I think can still get better based on a previous Royale I owned. The thing that caught my attention was that the chrony reported an average speed of 829, with a high of 839 and a low of 823 over 39 shots. When I got the gun last month from AOA their test target reported an average speed of 879, if I recall correctly. 

    So realizing I must have messed something up, I took the gun apart again for a closer visual inspection and the following pics detail what I found. It looks like I may have knicked an o-ring which I’m thinking could be the culprit for the decrease in speed since I’ve made no other adjustments. However, I’m hoping someone with a better understanding can shed light on that. I talked to AOA the other day and they’ve confirmed that I can pretty much go down to the local ACE hardware and source the o-rings so I’ll be doing that soon and trying the gun over the chrony again to see if there’s any improvement in velocity.

    I drew arrows to all the parts on the regulator that I would like to understand more about. I’d love to know how they all work and exactly what I’d need to do if I ever wanted to tune or adjust the regulator for different speeds. So I guess my questions are:

    1) How would these things be adjusted to effect change in the way the regulator functions?

    2) What lubricant should I be using when I put new o-rings in the gun?

    3) How could I effectually go about cleaning out the residue from inside the breech?

    4) The tiny hole in the side of the regulator, does it need to be pointed in a particular direction or does it not matter since it is between two orings?

    5) Can changing the speed at which the gun shoots improve the accuracy of the groups I’m getting or am I being unrealistic? I’ve always heard JSB Kings like to be shot around 890 to 910ish?

    6) Is there anything else I need to know about how a pro would go about tuning this regulator or gun in general?

    Any help greatly appreciated even if it’s only with one question or a question I didn’t even ask! haha
    Kind regards,
    Cliff

    Groups at 53 yards, almost no wind, shooting bench rested off bags. JSB kings, 829 FPS.

     

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    AirgunBill
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    Cliff I think the Royal regulator would be similar in adjustment to the Wildcat if not the same regulator. Ernest Rowe’s you tube channel has a couple of videos about adjusting and taking apart a Wildcat regulator. See if they help you any. Bill

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    Cliff_Allen
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    Thank you AirgunBill, I had seen a different one of Ernest’s video’s about the regulator and I didn’t know he had these other ones. That was almost discouraging seeing those ones you posted haha. There is a lot more to it than I had initially thought, I had no idea about a regulator tester. Hopefully the oring that I get at ACE Hardware will solve the problem lol. Thank you for your help with posting those.

    Regards,
    Cliff

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    TrapdorSpydr
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    Member

    We are in the same boat buddy. My reg was leaking out of the vent hole about 20 bar in 8 hours. I had that very nick in my o-ring- courious!

    do a search for my recent post on the proper o-ring sizes.  You are probably going to have to convert metric or to standard to get the closest sizes out of the “hardware” store bins.  The outer rings could be a little thicker as long as they seal proper. The inner rings I feel should be precise to insure a match with OEM tolerances.  

    The problem with adjusting the brass knurling knob is that it may have to be heated to soften the lock-tight.  If you heat too much, you could cook the inner o-rings.  My reg was put in after by AOA and they lock tighten it real good.  

    I have been adjusting mine in increments and the journey still proceeds.  I ran out of tank air and patience this evening!

    We will have to keep each other posted 

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    Dartagnan
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    Mind if I jump in this boat?:) For some reason my velocity dropped to about 825 fps from an average of 910fps on the Wildcat. All I did was increase the hammer spring tension 1/2 turn CW.  Than the velocity went hay wire. After an endless day trying to get the velocity back to where velocity use to be,  the closest I got the velocity was 865fps from a 230 Bar fill. I finally had to stop because my tank finally ran out of air.  I may have to dive in to get to the regulator. Which I’ve done for the same reason Trapdorspydr encountered.  The o-rings that needed replacing were the outer reg housing orings. I’m suspecting the issue I’m encountering is once again the regulator.  I too have some learning on this subject. 

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    hsnmz
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    First of all change the orings and see if that resolves the velocity and consistency issue.

    Secondly and most importantly don’t temper the regulator. You can make minor adjustments by increasing or decreasing the pressure on Belleville washers.  Don’t mess with any other parts as it may cause the regulator to stop functioning properly. Referring to the first 2 pics in the top post, in order to increase the regulator pressure you need to hold the allen key adjustment and have to turn the nut clockwise. as per my experience 1/8th of a turn increases the pressure by 10 bars but this may vary. BUT you must adjust the hammer spring tension in order to gain any benefit from the regulator adjustment.

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    MarkUK
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    Velocity inconsistency, especially decreases, in a Wildcat, might well be due to the barrel twisting over the transfer port, decreasing the effective size of the port.

    This happened in mine and I found that the grub screw that holds the barrel in place over the port had a cup end. I replaced it with a pointy ended grub screw that sits nicely in the barrel detente. Now the power stays exactly where I set it. (I didn’t overtighten and have now locktited the screw).

    I don’t know whether the Royale has the same barrel restraining mechanism, but it would be worth a look as a cause of inconsistency.

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    Cliff_Allen
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    Member

    Thank you everyone for the help! Been slammed at work today so no time to follow up. I did have time to call AOA and they’re shipping me a new o-ring kit for the whole gun including the regulator so I hope to have that soon and get everything back together. I asked them what to use to lube the gun and the guy on the phone said any non petroleum based silicone but I’m wondering if someone can confirm for me if this would work or if there are any suggestions on what is a know lube to work with o-rings?

    http://smile.amazon.com/Super-Lube-92003-Lubricating-Translucent/dp/B0081JE0OO/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1457394887&sr=1-1&keywords=silicone+grease+for+o-rings#Ask

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    Cliff_Allen
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    “MarkUK”Velocity inconsistency, especially decreases, in a Wildcat, might well be due to the barrel twisting over the transfer port, decreasing the effective size of the port.

    This happened in mine and I found that the grub screw that holds the barrel in place over the port had a cup end. I replaced it with a pointy ended grub screw that sits nicely in the barrel detente. Now the power stays exactly where I set it. (I didn’t overtighten and have now locktited the screw).

    I don’t know whether the Royale has the same barrel restraining mechanism, but it would be worth a look as a cause of inconsistency.

    
Thank you Mark, I hadn’t thought about this part. I did have the barrel off and I know what you are referring to. I thought I was pretty careful when I put the barrel back in to make sure the hole was lined up properly but I’ll double check this later and report back.

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    Dartagnan
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    Thank you Cliff_Allen!  I will definitely put that on the check list as well. I do remember taking off my moderator which was difficult to remove and probably twisted my barrel during the process. 

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    sniperlabyo
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    ship 2 wildcat to china that is setup as a 2 joules, ‘all I did was rotate the barrel to have a smaller aperture TP. all he have to do is realigned the TP to get full power! 

     

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    Dartagnan
    Participant
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    Airgun Bill / Ernest – Thank you for posting and making those videos.  The FX regulator doesn’t seem too complicated.  I am currently having issues with my reg.  Velocities are inconsistent and dropped about 60 – 75fps than before.  I’ve put over 5000 shots through and since the weather hasn’t let up and the warranty expired.  I plan on tearing down the regulator and get familiar with it.  I do not have a reg tester so measurements will have to do.  Tally ho!!! :)

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    kmd1984
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    Member

    I was going to start my own thread and ask about regulators, but I might as well do it here…

    FPE never really meant anything to me. I had a hard time trying to figure out how much “power” I really needed, until I saw a video where a guy is shooting a FX Wildcat, set to 10.7 fpe. He is shooting cans 100 yards away, and the pellet penetrates the can on both sides! That right there tells me, that 10.7 fpe is more power than I need. At least for now…

    Having said that, here is my question: A FX Indy in .22 has 30 fpe. If I now reduce the power down to lets say 5 fpe using the regulator, will that increase my shot count roughly by 6? So instead of pumping 21 times and getting 7 shots, I should be still pumping 21 times, but get around 42 shots?! Is “messing” with the regulator something I can do often (once a week), or rarely?

    Thanks,

    Kmd

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    Cliff_Allen
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    Member

    “kmd1984”I was going to start my own thread and ask about regulators, but I might as well do it here…

    FPE never really meant anything to me. I had a hard time trying to figure out how much “power” I really needed, until I saw a video where a guy is shooting a FX Wildcat, set to 10.7 fpe. He is shooting cans 100 yards away, and the pellet penetrates the can on both sides! That right there tells me, that 10.7 fpe is more power than I need. At least for now…

    Having said that, here is my question: A FX Indy in .22 has 30 fpe. If I now reduce the power down to lets say 5 fpe using the regulator, will that increase my shot count roughly by 6? So instead of pumping 21 times and getting 7 shots, I should be still pumping 21 times, but get around 42 shots?! Is “messing” with the regulator something I can do often (once a week), or rarely?

    Thanks,

    Kmd

    
Unless you have the tools and experience, I wouldn’t mess with the regulator at all. Ernest is a well known tuner here with lots of experience with regulators and he says even with the proper tools and experience it takes him multiple tries to get a regulator set up right.

    Also if you set a .22 gun to even 10 fpe, the pellet will be moving so slowly you’d have to aim several feet high to hit your target at 100 because the drop would be so significant. If you’re going to go that low in FPE, I’d recommend doing it in a .177 so that the pellet will be moving much faster than a .22 in the same power and you’d at least have a somewhat normal trajectory. 

    An easier, much less risky way to adjust the power would be to learn how to adjust the hammer spring on which ever gun you choose.

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    AirgunBill
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    “kmd1984”I was going to start my own thread and ask about regulators, but I might as well do it here…

    FPE never really meant anything to me. I had a hard time trying to figure out how much “power” I really needed, until I saw a video where a guy is shooting a FX Wildcat, set to 10.7 fpe. He is shooting cans 100 yards away, and the pellet penetrates the can on both sides! That right there tells me, that 10.7 fpe is more power than I need. At least for now…

    Having said that, here is my question: A FX Indy in .22 has 30 fpe. If I now reduce the power down to lets say 5 fpe using the regulator, will that increase my shot count roughly by 6? So instead of pumping 21 times and getting 7 shots, I should be still pumping 21 times, but get around 42 shots?! Is “messing” with the regulator something I can do often (once a week), or rarely?

    Thanks,

     

    
Kmd I looked at the specs. for the Indy and I don’t believe it has an regulator. I also believe the US versions being higher power the regulators could not be adjusted down to the fpe you want. What I suggest is seeing if a US importer could get you a UK version of the rifle you want. Since they need to be 12 fpe or less they will fit your plinking needs and desire for much more shots per fill Bill

    http://www.fxairguns.com/rifle/the-indy/

    Another fun difference with UK shot count with the FX Impact. It gets over 720 shots off one fill. WOW!

    I would say get on you tube and look at some models of air rifles you like in the UK version and see what they mention for shot count.

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    kmd1984
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    “Cliff_Allen”

     

    
Unless you have the tools and experience, I wouldn’t mess with the regulator at all. Ernest is a well known tuner here with lots of experience with regulators and he says even with the proper tools and experience it takes him multiple tries to get a regulator set up right.

    I see. I thought that “changing” the regulator was just a matter of screwing a screw in or out…

    Also if you set a .22 gun to even 10 fpe, the pellet will be moving so slowly you’d have to aim several feet high to hit your target at 100 because the drop would be so significant. If you’re going to go that low in FPE, I’d recommend doing it in a .177 so that the pellet will be moving much faster than a .22 in the same power and you’d at least have a somewhat normal trajectory. 

    Good to know… Anyhow, I should have made myself more clear. I am not planning on shooting anything at 100 yards. Here is what I was “thinking”:

    A .22, using 10.7 fpe, will penetrate a can at 100 yards, thus, a .22, using half the power (5 fpe) should have the same effect on the can, at half the distance (50 yards)? Right? If so, cutting the power in half again (2.5 fpe), I should be able to penetrate a can at around 25 yards!? Now, if I do not plan on penetrating a can, but shooting paper targets, I should be able to use even less power than 2.5 fpe?! Correct?!

    IF my “theory” would be true, I could at least have someone change the regulator for me, and get way more shots out of a FX Indy that I do now. By now I mean, would, as I do not have a PCP air rifle yet. : )

    An easier, much less risky way to adjust the power would be to learn how to adjust the hammer spring on which ever gun you choose.

    OK, thanks for the info!

    Kmd

     

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    kmd1984
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    “AirgunBill”

     

    
Kmd I looked at the specs. for the Indy and I don’t believe it has an regulator.

    I simply “assumed” that is does, as I thought all “higher-end” air rifles have a regulator. My bad.

    I also believe the US versions being higher power the regulators could not be adjusted down to the fpe you want. What I suggest is seeing if a US importer could get you a UK version of the rifle you want. Since they need to be 12 fpe or less they will fit your plinking needs and desire for much more shots per fill Bill

    Too bad. I thought adjusting the regulator was “easy” and could be done on a regular basis. That said, your idea of getting a UK model is not bad, but I do not want to limit myself to 12 fpe quite yet. Especially not when I thought that I could have “both” and it was just a matter of turning a screw.

    Another fun difference with UK shot count with the FX Impact. It gets over 720 shots off one fill. WOW!

    Crazy, I know! I saw that video as well. Actually, that video is one of the reason I thought I could get away with my “math”. It made me think that for the UK version they simply turn down the power, and for the US they simply just crank it up… and that I could do that on my own. 

    I would say get on you tube and look at some models of air rifles you like in the UK version and see what they mention for shot count.

    Thanks for the input, but like I said, I am not ready to limit myself to 12 fpe yet…

    Kmd

    EDIT: A video of the FX Impact by “Ted’s Holdover” made it look like you can adjust the regulator on it fairly easy. I guess not.

     

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    AirgunBill
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    kmd1984 I wish I knew how to do the selective quoting you are doing to answer your points and questions. Some regulators with exterior adjusting screws are fairly easy to adjust but there are limits to the adjustable range. Regulators found inside the rifles can be problematic to adjust properly. Usually regulator and or hammer spring size and tension must be match to a power range and also transfer port size. Some rifles will have adjustable transfer port sizes and other features to make them more power adjustable. It sounds to me the FX Impact has quite a bit of power adjustment to the rifle. Another thing to consider is pellets usually have a fps range where they are most accurate. Of course distance and fps you shoot at comes into play in the ability to maintain accuracy as you go further out with your targets. Its hard in the end to have a rifle that can do it all well. From continuing to read your posts a rifle in the lower power range with a power wheel available may be what you need. The FX Cyclone comes to mind again for an ideal plinker and light hunter. Its light weight, short size and power wheel for 14/24/32 fpe in .22 cas. matched to a hand pump to fill up its small 185cc air cylinder for about 30 shots per fill. Another thought for a rifle with more shots per fill, power wheel and also break down ability with a small case for travel is the FX Verminator. When I mentioned to you to think about getting an cf air tank from Air Tanks Fro Sale did you notice the 18 cu ft Guppy. It is very small and while you get less  fills per tank it is very small and portable to travel with and carry around. Bill

    http://www.airtanksforsale.com/

    FX Verminator broke down in carrying case

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    kmd1984
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    “AirgunBill”kmd1984 I wish I knew how to do the selective quoting you are doing to answer your points and questions.

    Easy. Click the “quote” button. Instead of  replying underneath the quoted text, you just reply within, and then put the text in BOLD letters. : )

    Some regulators with exterior adjusting screws are fairly easy to adjust but there are limits to the adjustable range.

    I see. So it it different from gun to gun. 

    Regulators found inside the rifles can be problematic to adjust properly. Usually regulator and or hammer spring size and tension must be match to a power range and also transfer port size. Some rifles will have adjustable transfer port sizes and other features to make them more power adjustable.

    I understand. I was hoping that ALL guns allow you to easily change the regulator “pressure” (not sure if that is the right term?), but apparently not. How hard is it to adjust the power of a gun using the “other features”?

    It sounds to me the FX Impact has quite a bit of power adjustment to the rifle.

    I believe so. Only question is, what is the “range”, the power can be adjusted at? If I can adjust the power all the way down to get 700 hundred shot with one fill, and then up to 30 fpe, I should be fine. : )

    Another thing to consider is pellets usually have a fps range where they are most accurate. Of course distance and fps you shoot at comes into play in the ability to maintain accuracy as you go further out with your targets. Its hard in the end to have a rifle that can do it all well.

    I did not know that.

    From continuing to read your posts a rifle in the lower power range with a power wheel available may be what you need. The FX Cyclone comes to mind again for an ideal plinker and light hunter. Its light weight, short size and power wheel for 14/24/32 fpe in .22 cas. matched to a hand pump to fill up its small 185cc air cylinder for about 30 shots per fill.

    Let me look at that one again. I need to read about it a bit… but it looks nice.

    Another thought for a rifle with more shots per fill, power wheel and also break down ability with a small case for travel is the FX Verminator.

    Not the prettiest gun around, but I guess you cannot have it all. I will look further into it. 

    When I mentioned to you to think about getting an cf air tank from Air Tanks Fro Sale did you notice the 18 cu ft Guppy. It is very small and while you get less  fills per tank it is very small and portable to travel with and carry around. Bill

    http://www.airtanksforsale.com/

    FX Verminator broke down in carrying case

    Not bad. I will take a closer look at the link and the rifle.

    Thanks again for all the help!

    Kmd
     

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    ortzsergio
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    Hi i have a problem whitn my fx royale regulator so i order a new orings to arizona airguns but need the video or diagram to replace if some body have please send thanks

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