Daystate Red Wolf .22 – what to expect for consistent accuracy?

Forums PCP Airguns Daystate Red Wolf .22 – what to expect for consistent accuracy?

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    DHart
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    I'm not new to firearms, but I am new to air rifles.

    I've had my Red Wolf for a couple of weeks and put about 700 rounds through it.  

    Back patio 48 yard range:

    I don't understand how I can go from getting a loose group, to a wonderfully tight group, and on the next one get a scattered mess?  I don't think it's my technique at fault. Or is this kind of inconsistency from one bullseye to another a "typical" target? There could be a little breeze influence in effect here, but I'm not so sure about that either.  

    I'm pretty sure I can put the pellets where I want them to go if there isn't something else messing with me or the rifle. Pellet weight variance?  Rifle regulation pressure irregularity?  Effects of light breeze?  Or what?

    Here is a target from yesterday. The bullseyes marked 18.13 are JSB Exact 18.13, those marked H&N 21.14 are Baracuda Match 21.14 gr, (these seem to be a favorite of my Red Wolf), those marked H&N 18.52 are Baracuda Hunter Extreme.

    Black circles are 3" diameter, larger ring is 1 7/8" diameter, and inner ring is 1" in diameter:

    To me, some of the groups look pretty good and a few of them look like a monkey was pulling the trigger?

    I seem to be getting a nice group, then a scattered mess. I'm pretty sure that my control of the rifle and trigger control is pretty good, so I'm thinking I shouldn't have these odd ball groups?  Or am I expecting too much?  

    I don't have a chronograph at this time and I'm shooting pellets straight out of the tins, so I know that would be the next step to dialing this situation down.

    I'm wondering if this is what I should be expecting at 48 yards?  Or does it look like something is wrong?

    Would I expect more consistency than this from an FX rifle?

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    Oregun
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    I'd compare single shot tray groups to groups that you shoot through the magazine.  Perhaps you'll see a difference.

    Have you cleaned your barrel?  I have the same amount of shots on mine…  groups starting to open up more than I like, time to give it a good cleaning and retest. 

     

     

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    DHart
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    Oregon… these were shot with the single shot tray.  

    And, I do have a patchworm kit and Ballistol inbound, to arrive middle of next week.

    What I don't understand is an open group like #3, followed by a very tight group like #4, then groups like #6, #7, #8 – tight, loose, tight.

    Is this unusual?  Should I expect more consistency?  

    And, maybe a crazy question, but do I need an FX rifle?

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    Oregun
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    My guess is pellet variation.  Whether shooting my FX, Air Arms, or Daystate guns, pellet variation (weight/size/deformities) can mess with ya.

    What pressure are you filling your gun to and what pressure are you shooting down to?  

     

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    zx10wall
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    Definitely clean the barrel. A dirty barrel can give decent groups one minute and fliers the next. 700 rounds is a lot without a cleaning. I wouldn’t call this inconsistent accuracy normal and your disappointment is not unwarranted.

    You really need to know your pellet speed as well. Do yourself a favor and get a chrony. Elemenate the possible variables that you know could cause issue; clean and record pellets speeds to start. 

    Consistency is key. Very subtle variation in hold or support pressure can make a difference. Be very sensitive to these things. 

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    DHart
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    Oregun

    My guess is pellet variation.  Whether shooting my FX, Air Arms, or Daystate guns, pellet variation (weight/size/deformities) can mess with ya.

    What pressure are you filling your gun to and what pressure are you shooting down to?  

     

    I fill to about 240 and it drops to 230 quickly, then I'm shooting down to 160, perhaps 150 at the lowest.

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    LTU-013
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    I have Pulsar .25 it's very similar to Red  Wolf just bullpup

    It is very very picky to pellets.

    So far best results are with JSB Exact 25.39 gr.

    If I would grab another pellet, with the pretty close weight, it would drift to a side 5-8 inches or even more at 30 yards.

    It's very strange

    H&N Crow Magnum 26.23 gr – always moves POI to the right,

    H&N Silver Point 24.38 – all over the place,

    H&N Barracuda Hunter Extreme 28.24 – down to the left.

    But it's not like half of an inch or inch, it's by 5-8 inches.

    For each pellet a have to re-adjust scope, it was bit annoying, I stopped using any other pellets, just JSB Exact.

    My friend next to me was shooting with the same pellets with Vulcan – his POI would move just a little bit.

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    DHart
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    zx10wall

    Definitely clean the barrel. A dirty barrel can give decent groups one minute and fliers the next. 700 rounds is a lot without a cleaning. I wouldn’t call this inconsistent accuracy normal and your disappointment is not unwarranted.

    You really need to know your pellet speed as well. Do yourself a favor and get a chrony. Elemenate the possible variables that you know could cause issue; clean and record pellets speeds to start. 

    Consistency is key. Very subtle variation in hold or support pressure can make a difference. Be very sensitive to these things. 

    OK… I plan a good cleaning as soon as the patchworm arrives, And will be ordering a chrony soon.

    And, I am focusing on being very sensitive to hold and support pressure on the rifle, as well as very careful trigger control and "follow through".

    I can see from some of the groups that I'm producing that my part seems to be done pretty well… I think?

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    DHart
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    LTU-013

    I have Pulsar .25 it's very similar to Red  Wolf just bullpup

    It is very very picky to pellets.

    So far best results are with JSB Exact 25.39 gr.

    If I would grab another pellet, with the pretty close weight, it would drift to a side 5-8 inches or even more at 30 yards.

    It's very strange

    H&N Crow Magnum 26.23 gr – always moves POI to the right,

    H&N Silver Point 24.38 – all over the place,

    H&N Barracuda Hunter Extreme 28.24 – down to the left.

    But it's not like half of an inch or inch, it's by 5-8 inches.

    For each pellet a have to re-adjust scope, it was bit annoying, I stopped using any other pellets, just JSB Exact.

    My friend next to me was shooting with the same pellets with Vulcan – his POI would move just a little bit.

    Yes… it does seem strange to have such a radical change in impact with a change from this pellet to that.

    The best accuracy and most consistency I've seen with the RW .22 at any distance is with Baracuda Match 21.14 gr.  I just ordered a good number of tins of that pellet.  

    I do have a LOT of JSB Exact 15.89 gr pellets to push through though.  I like to use those, at LOW power level, to pop my steel reactive targets at 35 yards or so. The RW and those pellets certainly serves that purpose just fine!

    My RW is a pretty accurate rifle for the most part, I just don't understand getting a sloppy group on one bullseye, and then a minute later getting a nice tight group on another bullseye?

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    Gadget
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    Nice Red Wolf DHart !!  I seen you on GTA.

    IMHO

    I own both Pulsar and Red Wolf HP in .25 cal.  I realize yours is .22 cal but I thought I would tell you what I have experienced. 

    1 – The first thing I do when I get a new pellet rifle is clean the barrel before any pellets are shot.  I remove Huggetts and I use Bristol and a soft nylon brush.  Then I use the patch worm kit until clean.

    2 – Then I install Huggetts and fire 20 or so shots.  I carefully check the Huggetts for any clipping.  On my Pulsar I had a slight clipping and experienced some good grouping and some WTH groups.  Corrected Huggett and all tightened up.

    3 – I tried a few different brands of pellets and found both airguns like H&N Round nose, JSB Exact Kings & JSB Exact King Heavy MKII.

    4 – Further testing Pulsar I found < 40 yards JSB Exact Kings were best.  > 40 yards JSB Exact King Heavy MKII.  The Red Wolf HP was JSB Exact King Heavy MKII were best.  Groups were good but not ideal.  Quarter size at 40 yards.

    5 – I used my Chrono on both to be sure they were performing as expected.  The Electronic Guns are amazingly flat

    6 – I further tested the magazine .vs. Single Shot.  Single shot was slightly better.

    7 – I then did a pellet roll test and sorted pellets by weight.  This really helped the grouping tighten up.  

    8 – I am currently looking at pellet sizing to see if magazine can do as good a single shot tray.

    I am getting dime size groups at 40 yards.  The wind seems to be my worst enemy.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Hope this helps.  Enjoy that fine airgun !!

    M

     

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    Spray1Mark
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    I have found one major factor when testing for groups and that is the differences in the lead.

    When shooting groups with one particular pellet, if I move to another type groups can be erratic, when I move to a different brand in a session the gun can behave like a shotgun!

    I put this down to the hardness of the lead and how the following pellets then slide down the barrel, it's definitely there, I shoot on an indoor range and have noticed it over and over again!

    Personally I wouldnt even bother with anything other than JSB pellets, for a start you dont even know what head size the H&N are do you?

    As you probably know I bought my fourth Redwolf last week, the first three are in .177 the last one in .22. Now to say I was hesitant on the .22 is an understatement, I will make this statement now and I absolutely believe it YOU WILL NEVER MATCH .177 CONSISTENCY WITH ANY OTHER AIRGUN CALIBER, EVER!

    The reason for this is simple, .177 pellets are better, the reason being .177 is what is used in the Olympics, match and competetive shooters worldwide all use .177.

    So for years all the pellet manufacturers concentrated on .177 for winning titles and .22 and above for hunters, who are considered to accept a lower level of performance from the projectile. I believe this transfers over to barrel making as well, companies such as Walther have concentrated their efforts on producing airgun barrels in .177 for Olympic shooters and winning titles!

    Now JSB seem to be breaking the mould here and offering better quality pellets to match what the manufacturers are doing, specifically promoting longer range shooting, but compare a batch of .22 to a batch of .177 JSB Premium select pellets and you would be staggered at the difference.

    Of course .177 has it's downsides, especially with downrange energy retention but that is irrelevant to me as I dont kill things. In the USA with no power restrictions a larger caliber is the obvious choice, but at the cost of not having the best pellet consistency IMO.

    If only JSB would produce the premium select pellets in .22 I would be a happy man indeed!

    SO BACK TO YOUR RESULTS! as above that barrel must be cleaned! secondly when testing try to concentrate on one brand and type only, i.e shoot 10 groups with one type of pellet and average the CTC results, clean the barrel shoot some sighters and repeat with a different brand etc.

    Are you keeping the battery charged? it can make a difference in the way the gun performs.

    LASTLY is my .22 Redwolf as good as my .177's? NO is the anwer to that and I put it down solely to the projectiles for the reasons above, is the .22 Redwolf better (read more consistent) than any of my 3 FX Crowns? HELL YES!

    If you want to improve the groups above (aside from cleaning) you firstly IMO need to fit a rail to the stock (I know) as shooting using an ATLAS or an ACCUTAC does improve the groups when you get the technique right, about 10,000 pellets through my four have shown me that, not that shooting with a front bag is bad, I just believe it's more difficult to get right.

    As far as my testing with velocities go, there is a definite sweet spot for all airgun pellets aound the 860-880 mark and with 30 foot plus, the heavier pellets certainly shoot better, without doubt I would be concentrating on the 18.13 and the heavier JSB monsters, probably the beasts on the highest power settings, if you measure them you will also find that the Monsters & beasts are more consistent, probably because they produce them in smaller numbers.

    What really surprised me was how different batches/die numbers for the JSB pellets made a massive difference. I bought 10 tins of 15.89's from different stores that had different batches in stock and they shot very differently, one batch and only one shot STAGGERINGLY better than all the others I kid you not, see below!

    Die 50, batch 4, 5.52 head diameter, year 17 manufacture! I repeated the test with this particular pellet and it did this practically every time with 10 shot groups from the bench indoors at 25.

     

     

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    Gadget
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    Four Red Wolf's…

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    spysir
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    Taking for granted it is NOT you ( have another rig to shoot side by side the same day?)  cuasing the issue then YES you should expect better accuracy. Folks do shoot BR with airguns.

     1mark pointed something out I strongly agree with. 

    Changing pellets ( even perhaps same brand different weight but not really w/JSB ? ) can indeed mess things up.

    Clean barrel pick a pellet, shoot plenty to lead in the barrel and see how they shoot. Swith pellets, clean , repeat.

    It is possible that shooting just a couple of other pellets will effect your barrel.

     

    John

     

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    bubblerboy64
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    Lots of good advice.   I don't believe anyone has mentioned conditions.  Anytime I've been west there has always been wind and mirage. At fifty yards it would be significant.  Clean barrel select your to date best pellet maybe a better rest.  Shoot only when the conditions are PERFECT bet your groups will be dime sized.   That and consistent gun control and trigger release.  

    In other words do everything right.  Shooting groups at 50 you have to 

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    Spray1Mark
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    To be truthfull I would never judge a rifles consistency in anything other than indoor at 25 yards, as mentioned there are simply too many variables.

    Once extensive testing has been done I would then extend ranges and interperet results based on how pellets performed at 25 yards, now of course we know 25 yard accuraccy is not always a good indication of potential 50,75 & 100 yard performance, but this isn't just about consistency it's about what particular set of "conditions" a pellet was designed to perform in.

    One thing I will say hand on heart, is that my three .177 Redwolfs needed no real testing as such, they pretty much shot anything I fed them (JSB only) exceptionally well and more importantly there were no spurious results to cast doubt in my mind! no massive shifts with the first pellet out of the tin I put down the night before, no big changes after filling to SWP and shooting etc. etc.

    The .22 also did pretty well and certainly no struggle compared with any other .22 I have owned.

    Perhaps you USA guys are missing a trick? you might find that shooting at UK power levels 12FT pellets (especially .177) perform better than you have seen before? Ted de-tuned a 30FT HW100 down to 12FT and was amazed at how much better the pellets shot in one of his old videos.

     

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    DHart
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     Thanks for all of the responses.  There is a lot of good info that you guys have shared.  Especially regarding pellets.  I will say that after shooting JSB Exact 15s and 18s, I noticed that the H&N Baracuda Match 21 gr shot quite noticeably tighter.  No question in my mind that this Red Wolf likes the Baracuda Match 21 gr pellets better than the JSBs. The head size on the Baracuda Match 21s I’ve been shooting is 5.51.

    And yes, I fully charged the battery about 700 rounds ago and have begun the practice, yesterday, of recharging it on the first of every month.

    I am one of those people who thrive on precision and “nerdy” detail, as my wife would say.  I record the details of every shot I have made with the Red Wolf on a log that I created, recording date, pellet used, power level selected, pressure in the gun, wind conditions, method of feed, and scope elev & windage. Being this way, I’m sure I will take to weighing, rolling, and cleaning pellets, and chronographing every shot, if need be. I want and expect consistent accuracy. (One of the foremost reasons I bought a Red Wolf.)

    Daystate America at AoA has taken note of my posts and noticed that the rifle is not performing to Daystate standard.  They have requested that I contact AoA first thing Monday morning (they are expecting my call).  Their message says that Daystate will do whatever is needed to correct this problem that I’m having.  I am very thankful to live about a 50 minute drive from AoA, so if they are open tomorrow (Labor Day), I will be taking my Red Wolf to them immediately. 

    I do hope that I can achieve more consistent accuracy results from the Red Wolf, as I am really enjoying using this rifle.  I have the luxury of shooting every day off of my back patio and I intend to continue to shoot PCP, every day, whether with this Red Wolf or another PCP rifle.  This is such a wonderfully enjoyable hobby that it has become something of an addiction for me.  A “Happy Habit” as Mary See would call eating Sees Candy.  

    Being my only air rifle, I actually dread giving it up for service, as that means no practicing until I get it back again. 🙁

    I do believe that I will be shooting among some of you fine folks at a future EBR event!  🙂

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    Hubertus
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    if you found a good batch, buy as many tins as you can from it :)

    every 10m shooter does it!!

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    Spray1Mark
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    I think that the Daystate Sovereign pellets are made by JSB so a softer lead, and the Dayatate Kaiser are made by H&N who's lead is generally a fair bit harder.

    Perhaps JSB have done a brilliant job of convincing retailers in the UK but I have not found one yet that will reccomend H&N over JSB.

    It could be that the 21 grain pellet just stands up to the power of the Redwolf HP better, did you say you tested them all at the three different power levels?

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    DHart
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    Spray1Mark

    I think that the Daystate Sovereign pellets are made by JSB so a softer lead, and the Dayatate Kaiser are made by H&N who's lead is generally a fair bit harder.

    Perhaps JSB have done a brilliant job of convincing retailers in the UK but I have not found one yet that will reccomend H&N over JSB.

    It could be that the 21 grain pellet just stands up to the power of the Redwolf HP better, did you say you tested them all at the three different power levels?

    My Red Wolf is the standard .22.  My target testing has been on HIGH power at 48 yards.  

    Generally speaking, I've been most impressed with the H&N Baracuda Match 21.14, with 5.51 head size, pellet performance. Not that the JSB Exact 18 gr has been bad, just that the Baracuda Match 21.14 gr has been most impressive of the four pellets that I've tried (JSB 15.89 gr, JSB 18.13 gr, Baracuda Hunter Extreme 18.24 gr, and Baracuda Match 21.14 gr.)

    Perhaps my Red Wolf prefers heavy-for-caliber pellets! Which is fine by me, as they can resist the effects of wind better than the lighter pellets.

    I'm looking forward to trying the JSB Jumbo Monster Re-designed 25.4 gr pellets.

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    Crusher
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    DHart, I see that you don't mention the fps so you don't have a chrono right?  Clean the barrel for sure but, you need to slow the pellet down a bit. I bet on HI it is shooting the 18's at over 1000 fps. Mine shoots about 950 fps with the 25 gr JSB. Try shooting the 18's on LOW power. That will still spit them in the 850 range. Mine is super accurate with 18's on low. But then it is also very accurate with the 25's on Hi and Med.

    So maybe clean the barrel, put about 20-30 shots through it to season the barrel again and then try shooting the 18's slower. I bet you'll see a big difference.

     

    I shot this card with 25's on MED at 50 yards this week. The groups on the diamond points are all 10 shot groups.

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