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DANGER: Asking for PayPal F&F or x% add-on fees.

Forums General Discussion DANGER: Asking for PayPal F&F or x% add-on fees.

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    pdxFrank
    Participant
    Member
    United States
    Accuracy: +9

    PayPal would have a field-day here.  And a lot of folks risk getting their money tied up. :(
    (or risk a bum deal with F&F and no way to recover)

    "You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method."

    SOURCE

     

    Most classified sites I've used have their own policy in order to make folks aware.

     

    Likely old-news to some, and some who don't care.  Me, makes me cringe every time I see it.  Like a Bette Midler song cringe.

    • This topic was modified 4 months ago by pdxFrank.
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    BackStop
    Participant
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    United States
    Accuracy: +15

    Bette Midler makes me cringe…

     

    What is "F&F"?

    F&F Friends and Family (mobile phones)
    F&F Fast and the Furious (movie)
    F&F Flavor and Fragrance
    F&F Fast and Furious
    F&F Fixtures and Fittings
    F&F Fox and Friends (TV show)
    F&F Full and Final (settlement)
    F&F Forgive and Forget
    F&F Furniture & Fixtures
    F&F France and Flanders
    F&F Fit and Finish
    F&F Facts & Figures (various organizations)
    F&F Friends and Followers (social media)
    F&F Florence and Fred (UK clothing brand)
    F&F Fit & Fabulous (exercise)
    F&F Fire & Forget
    F&F Fanned and Faved
    F&F Fuzing and Firing
    F&F Fix and Follow Vision
    F&F Feetsinkers & Friends
    F&F

    1st and 15th Entertainment (record label)

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by BackStop.
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    pdxFrank
    Participant
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    United States
    Accuracy: +9

    Friends and Family

    Allows one to avoid fees.  Unwise for at least a couple reasons when used with a stranger.

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    BackStop
    Participant
    Member
    United States
    Accuracy: +15

    pdxFrank

    Friends and Family

    Allows one to avoid fees.  Unwise for at least a couple reasons when used with a stranger.

    Thanks!  I don't use PayPal.  Something about it always made me wary.  I guess I am just old.  (chuckle)

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    ImpactX
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    United States
    Accuracy: +5

    F&F  is what the name implies. Friends and family duh. So why would anyone use F&F to send money to a stranger? Cause they want to avoid the fee. Lmao is it worth it? No. Once u get fk over by F&F, paypal can not help you. I see sellers in here will make the buyer to pay the fee. Which is not correct.  If you look at PayPal policy. Sellers pay the fee. Not buyer. But folks here will ask F&F or make you pay the fee. I think that is reportable to PayPal? Not sure how PayPal handles this. Should call or email them and ask what happens when sellers tried to make you pay the fees. 

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    rc4fun
    Participant
    Member
    United States
    Accuracy: +8

    There are still a lot of scam sites & people taking your money where PayPal dosen't do you any good. 

    I guess the proper way would be to add the fee to the price and then offer a cash discount. 

    https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/scam-sight-back-up/?view=all#post-1024350

     

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    vinny
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    Member
    United States
    Accuracy: +22

    Maybe im Missing something here but if the said deal is between two solid long time members , both with good feedback isn’t it our choice to use f&f if we want to, if we can save a few bucks why not. After all for the most part we are mostly all adults and seasoned members , there are a few on here that just joined tomorrow and have no posts, or feedback , I definitely wouldn’t do f&f with them,  I spose it boils down to its each members individual choice, to make our own decisions,  not have them made for us,   Just rambling here I guess but at my age I guess that’s what we do lol.  

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    CharlieF
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    United States
    Accuracy: +12

    When I buy here I welcome F&F from known members. I only buy from those type of folks regardless of F&F. When I sell its F&F or you pay fees. If that bothers you, don’t buy the item. F&F allows the buyer to save 3%. I give a rats rectum what Paypal has to say. If I was selling straight Paypal, I would just jack the price by 3% to cover the fees   The idea is for the seller to get a fair return and the buyer to get a good deal. Not for Paypal to make money. I don’t guess i’m getting old, I am. LOL

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    vinny
    Participant
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    United States
    Accuracy: +22

    CharlieF.   Well said 

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    M0ist0ne
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    United States
    Accuracy: +12

    Technically, it's 2.9% + .30 :) 

    And it's not against the rules of PayPal if you just bake the fee into your asking price.

    The other issue with PayPal is they can get a little weird about the use of their service to buy 'guns'. Especially if you go to dispute a transaction. 

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    bandg
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    United States
    Accuracy: +34

    Paypal provides a service-a relatively safe way to transfer money between a buyer and a seller.  They have policies that people should follow.  Put any "fee" into YOUR asking price.  All JMO, certainly.

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    ChRiSiS
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    Member
    United States
    Accuracy: +18

    I think there is some misunderstanding here. The Seller is always the one paying the PayPal fees. What happens of ten on this site is that the seller charges a higher price for a straight commercial transaction than for one between “friends & family”. The Seller then nets the same amount, regardless of whether they sell “commercially” or to a friend.

    Obviously, everyone can make their own choice. After all, this is America (mostly). Whether or not this is legal elsewhere I can’t say, but even though PayPal probably wouldn’t like it, they don’t get to define who I consider my “friends”. If a large commercial vendor was using this approach I suspect they would get in trouble, but for the individuals trading things on this site I doubt that PayPal is gonna get their Knickers in a twist.

    What is worth asking is if it really is going to make any difference to us, the buyers and spellers on AGN. Given that PayPal policies seem to exclude the use of the service for selling “Guns”, and that there have been many people claiming that PayPal will not help you if you sell an Airgun even if You use the commercial (non F&F) route then it is reasonable to ask why one would ever pay the higher price for protection that might or might not exist. I have yet to see a definitive answer to this question, however there are some hints out there. A number of commercial sites, (just one example being SPAW – only because I purchased some stuff there last night) allow the use of PayPal in their checkout systems. They do not offer a F&F option, nor could they, since they are clearly operating businesses which sell airgun and related products. This they are obviously paying the fee to PayPal every time someone uses that method of payment. I also doubt they would do that if it was not allowed by PayPal due to the product category somehow being one related to firearms. Based on this, I think that for airgun related purchases it is probably safer to pay the fee and that PayPal will likely back you up (as specified in their policies) should there be an issue. Whether or not you choose to do it though is your prerogative.

    I am sure there are people who will have examples where PayPal hasn’t helped, or has disallowed a claim because the product was a “gun”. I personally do not find such anecdotal evidence persuasive. There are always examples where something goes wrong, just like the fact that even with two doses of vaccine some people may still get Covid. For the extremely vast majority though PayPal works as it claims it does and the proof of that is just how big and important it has become as a payment processor. You don’t get that big by making it a policy to scam people, at least not in my experience.

    The old saying “You pays your money and you makes your choices” applies here. I uses F&F with people I know or have done business with before, or who have a track record on the site. For the others, I’ll go the higher priced route.

    Chris

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    Kgphotos
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    United States
    Accuracy: +11

    The idea is for the seller to get a fair return and the buyer to get a good deal. Not for Paypal to make money. I don’t guess i’m getting old, I am. LOL

    i don’t think that is right. I know we are not always happy with PayPal’s gun policies but is it right to cheat them. Do you always look for ways to cheat the companies that you do business with. PayPal is a for profit company offering a service that we find useful. Why should they not make a profit? I think it’s great that PayPal offers F&F for its intended purpose. It’s kind of sad to see people take advantage of that program when selling items on a classifieds platform. You are basically stealing from PayPal. 
          I’m very open minded. If you think I’m wrong please help set me straight. Thanks,

          Kenny

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    JamesD.
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    Member
    United States
    Accuracy: +53

    I just adjusted my 3 ads to +3% for G&S due to reading this. 

    With my 15+ year 100% positive feedback across every forum & Ebay, my 3 day inspection period nobody has to worry about G&S. I don't touch payments until I know everything arrived fine & item is up to buyers expectations.

    I got those 20+pages of 100% positive feedback back when all we had was USPMO. I'll still do it if I feel comfortable with the person I'm dealing with. They have to be a true friend for one. 

    In all honesty PayPal kind of sucks on the anti projectile, anything with a trigger deal. We can always say we're buying or selling golf clubs but I'm not fond of bending truths as life gets murky that way.

    Bottom line for me is I've wasted tens of thousands on airguns and at this point in my life I could PIF for several Red Wolfs BNIB if I wanted. Anyone buying from me has literally one thing to worry about. I'm getting old & God could take me at anytime. Otherwise everything is as described or better & as long as I drop dead AFTER I get out the PO door, buyer is fine & items arrive as promised LOL.

      Seriously though, I have over 300 phone numbers & addresses of everyone I ever dealt with. So do a lot of other people here. Just ask the guys like us that have been around for awhile (or forever, I miss Fuzzy Lime Mick, guy was like 90 15 years ago, God bless & RIP) to verify anything/anyone you're not sure of. 

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by JamesD..
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    bandg
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    Accuracy: +34

    @Kgphotos-+1.  Paypal could easily decide to eliminate F&F completely if "abused" (in their eyes).  

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by bandg.
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    JamesD.
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    United States
    Accuracy: +53

    Kgphotos

    The idea is for the seller to get a fair return and the buyer to get a good deal. Not for Paypal to make money. I don’t guess i’m getting old, I am. LOL

    i don’t think that is right. I know we are not always happy with PayPal’s gun policies but is it right to cheat them. Do you always look for ways to cheat the companies that you do business with. PayPal is a for profit company offering a service that we find useful. Why should they not make a profit? I think it’s great that PayPal offers F&F for its intended purpose. It’s kind of sad to see people take advantage of that program when selling items on a classifieds platform. You are basically stealing from PayPal. 
          I’m very open minded. If you think I’m wrong please help set me straight. Thanks,

          Kenny

    Hey Kenny,

      I know you're a great guy. I remember you from way back. I have to say I don't think PayPal is getting cheated. They've made well over $200 on me alone this year in transfer fees & that 3.5% or whatever it is. 

      If anyone IS getting cheated it's the people that get ripped off by PayPal by not getting reimbursed if their airgun doesn't show up or is damaged. I'm only selling 2 gems & a few I use but from now on I only buy new & I'm not buying anything I might have or want to sell to buy something else. That's just foolish & I've wasted enough money, time, youth by being a fool.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by JamesD..
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    shambozzie
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    United States
    Accuracy: +27

    Ok, you check the classified and fine this dream gun.. You don't know the seller from crap. He is only a member here. Not your friend and definitely not a family member. With that said why would one choose f& f to pay. A classic man in the mirror moment.

     

     

     

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    JamesD.
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    Member
    United States
    Accuracy: +53

    shambozzie

    Ok, you check the classified and fine this dream gun.. You don't know the seller from crap. He is only a member here. Not your friend and definitely not a family member. With that said why would one choose f& f to pay. A classic man in the mirror moment.

     

     

     

    I would choose G&S if I'm not 100% sure of a person. You know what I mean. If it's you, my lefty buddies, I know I can trust you guys but I still would just pay the darn fee for protection of item traveling, getting lost, damaged. But yeah you also know I've told you I would rather just buy everything new.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by JamesD..
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    bandg
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    United States
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    JamesD.

    Kgphotos

    The idea is for the seller to get a fair return and the buyer to get a good deal. Not for Paypal to make money. I don’t guess i’m getting old, I am. LOL

    i don’t think that is right. I know we are not always happy with PayPal’s gun policies but is it right to cheat them. Do you always look for ways to cheat the companies that you do business with. PayPal is a for profit company offering a service that we find useful. Why should they not make a profit? I think it’s great that PayPal offers F&F for its intended purpose. It’s kind of sad to see people take advantage of that program when selling items on a classifieds platform. You are basically stealing from PayPal. 
          I’m very open minded. If you think I’m wrong please help set me straight. Thanks,

          Kenny

    Hey Kenny,

      I know you're a great guy. I remember you from way back. I have to say I don't think PayPal is getting cheated. They've made well over $200 on me alone this year in transfer fees & that 3.5% or whatever it is. 

      If anyone IS getting cheated it's the people that get ripped off by PayPal by not getting reimbursed if their airgun doesn't show up or is damaged. I'm only selling 2 gems & a few I use but from now on I only buy new & I'm not buying anything I might have or want to sell to buy something else. That's just foolish & I've wasted enough money, time, youth by being a fool.

    So "if their airgun doesn't show up or is damaged", the buyer (who might have paid with F&F) should be out of luck?  Not logical, IMO.  Paypal isn't a shipper.  Ship fully insured and such seemingly could be taken care of.

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    JamesD.
    Participant
    Member
    United States
    Accuracy: +53

    I know people don't want to pay the fees and in turn they lowball the asking price if they're going to pay the fees.

    My advice is pay the fees and insure the package for full amount, and 3 day priority.

    But, if I'm dealing with trusted friends a USPMO, F&F, or anything else is fine for me as long as package is insured and double boxed, sent fast.

     

      I was sitting here last night ready to spend a large amount but I'm not buying a BNIB airgun that's quite pricey if I can't get ammo shipped at the same time.

    There's always the chance something is lost or parts slides out of box during shipping. That just happened to someone on a BNIB purchase & I'm not hearing that it's being taken care of so I'm hesitant to buy at all. 

    I guess everything is a risk. We just have to ask ourselves if we can afford to take a loss or not. Probably not. Maybe we should start looking at that Escrow service Michael had posted about. Wouldn't that solve absolutely everything?

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