My Condor's History

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I recently purchased a .25 Condor SS that had been modified. As far as I know the only mod was a 95 gram brass hammer with what looks like a teflon guide.

With the gun at 1-1 I charged it to about 3k psi and shot a string of 72 shots alternating between H&N Barracuda and JSB Kings. This was to allow me to evaluate the power curve with both pellets in one go. It gave me 36 data points on even numbers for the 'cudas and 36 data points on the odd numbers for the Kings. The 'cudas started out at 55 fpe and over 72 shots ended up at about 25 fpe. The Kings started out at about 50 fpe and over the course of 72 shots ended up at about 24 fpe. This motivated me to replace the heavy hammer with a stock hammer which I ordered from Talon Tunez.

Today I replaced that heavy hammer and charged the gun to about 2.2k psi. I shot only six shots (JSB Kings 25 gr), one was an error 2. I used different settings and this is the result:

1-1 359 fps
4-1 566 fps
6-8 621 fps
8-1 782 fps
13-1 865 fps (loud)

This encouraged me as my hope is to tame this beast and bring it back down to around 38 to 40 fpe and get the shot count up over 50 or so usable on the curve. Before the change the first shot was the hardest and every shot thereafter dropped off somewhat.

Do these numbers (these new numbers) seem to be in the ball park for a stock Condor SS in .25 at 2200 psi?
 
I apologize for talking to myself but I think it is best to keep this all in one thread and maybe someone will see something which provokes them to provide their opinion.

Today I took the gun out and shot it over the chronograph - a lot.

I started with a 3000 psi fill.

Initially I observed that even with a setting of 13 - 1 my muzzle velocity at 3k was significantly less than it was with the same setting at 2200 psi.

I then proceeded to shoot and measure with settings at 12 - 1, 9 - 1, 6 - 1, and 3 - 1.

At 12 - 1 I found a nice bell curve starting at 2650 psi and ending at about 1800 psi where I was shooting 39 fpe +/- 3 fpe. There were about 30 shots in that curve.
At 9 - 1 I found a nice bell curve starting at 2250 psi and ending at about 1900 psi where I was shooting 37.5 fpe +/- 1.5 fpe. There were about 25 shots in that curve.
At 6 - 1 I had a curve that ran out slowly and then went almost vertical at about 150 shots, finally dropping off the cliff after 165 shots.
At 3 - 1 I had a curve that ran out slowly and went almost vertical after about 240 shots, peaked around 270, and dropped off quickly after that.

The muzzle energy was equal at the following settings after the stated number of shots:
12 - 1, 84 shots, 34. 2 fpe
9 - 1, 113 shots, 34.2 fpe
6 - 1, 174 shots, 34.2 fpe
3 - 1, 290 shots, 34.2 fpe
These data were measured when shooting the strings mentioned in the paragraph above.

Next I will purchase or make a couple of flat washers and slip them under the top hat valve. Hopefully this will flatten out those two curves and provide an improvement in the number of useful shots per charge. I've landed right in the range of power that I want but I'd like to have more like 60 useful shots per charge.

Also as mentioned I went from a 93 gram hammer to a 50 gram (stock) hammer. The gun does not have a hammer weight in it. This is probably why I am having to use such high hammer spring settings to find the useful portion of the bell curve. I may take a lathe to the 93 gram hammer and trim it down to about 71 grams. That would probably move those bell curves into lower hammer spring settings.

So... That is where I am with this project today.
 
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"ChiefRicci"I am defiantly no expert (VERY FAR FROM IT). Wouldn't a regulator do what you are looking for? Get rid of the curve? Want to
learn.
Click to expand...
Yes sir, it would do that. I had a BSA Lonestar that I regulated with an altaros regulator which got 70 shots in a lovely flat string. It seems to me like it was getting 18 FPE or so. That gun is gone now.

But I ramble. Yes it would do exactly what I want. On Airforce guns regulators have to sit between the bottle and the breech and they lengthen the pull of the rifle. I want to get the rifle properly tuned before I decide whether or not to also go with a regulator. One of the nicer things about a regulator on a rifle like the one detailed above is that it can be charged to 3k psi but the best part of the curve kicks in around 2600 psi. So you can set your regulator to whatever pressure is in the middle of your curve and pick up a ton of shots on a large bottle like the one on a Condor.

But before I regulate, I want to have the rifle tuned well within the factory specs. When I got it, it was somewhat off balance, for pellets. It would likely have been fine shooting .257 bullets.

I ordered the Condor hammer weight and some of the teflon washers for the valve today. After those are installed and tuned I'll decide what to do about regulating the rifle.
 
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Almost every time I hear of someone buying a gun that was modded out, the results are far less than what my stock guns get. I usually set my PW at 5 and go from there, I install an "O" ring below the top hat and give the top hat about 1/8 of a twist to make up for the space taken up by the "O" ring. The top hat is then Blue LocTited so it wont slip and change position. I then shoot with a velocity range I prefer with a certain pellet. As it stands now the JSB KH in .25 cal is the pellet of choice at around 950-975 fps depending on the gun.

I go for a set number of shots, and then I refill. All my Condors are for hunting and I have never shot more then 10 hunting shots on an outing. This is for GS + size game ..... Starlings are a different game all together.

I have heard some pretty sad stories of folks spending some good $$$ for a polish job or additions that were not needed. Unless you are making a specialized gun, chances are a stock Condor and some minor tweaks are all that are needed.

For me and all my Condors, the "O" ring and the lengthening of the Top Hat stroke have done wonders. The PW between 5 and 7 at the most will send your ammo almost too fast for accuracy. If I need 7 on the PW I will improve the TH gap by .030 -,050 and that is all that is needed to increase speed and lower the PW. It is a balancing act of spring power vs amount of dwell time.

This may be just me, but it works for me, I also shoot heavy for caliber pellets so my BC is the highest I can get for hunting.

wll2506
 
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So... I got the parts in today and am now shooting a stock condor except for a 12" barrel and what looks like a teflon washer under the tophat. Piddled with it for a while and backed out the tophat one turn. Remember this is a 12" barrel. I set the following PW settings and got the following graphs.






I think the next thing is to set it up at 5 - 8 and zero it for hunting. ;)
 
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Oldspook I just did a fill and shot string test on an old TalonSS in .22 cal. to find the 'Bell Curve'. I was wondering what velocity spread you got from your best shot string. From what I read for long range shooting say over 50 yards you should keep your velocity spread to about 1% to 2%. and at closer distances you can get away with a 3% to 4% difference. The point being you will get less difference in shot drop the lower the spread in velocity. Of course the accuracy level needed is dictated by the size of your target/game and distance your rifle can take down game. With my TalonSS if I fill to 2700 psi and shoot down to 2200psi I get about 40 shots with a difference in velocity of about 3% and if I go for a difference of 1 1/2% velocity I get about 25 shots. Have you tried say shooting at your maximum needed range at an single aim point with a full string and then see how much the pellet drops from start to finish. That would give you a good indication how well you can maintain your needed accuracy level. Bill
 
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"AirgunBill"Have you tried say shooting at your maximum needed range at an single aim point with a full string and then see how much the pellet drops from start to finish. That would give you a good indication how well you can maintain your needed accuracy level. Bill

Click to expand...
The graphs above are much longer than any practical shot string. In those I am just locating potential curves, getting to know the power wheel as it were. 

The most promising potential power curves I've identified (for Kodiaks) are:

10 - 1 50+ fpe from shots 1 thru 18 (18 shots) starting fill 2900
6 - 1 45 fpe from shots 8 thru 33 (25 shots) starting fill about 2700
4 - 1 40 fpe from shots 15 thru 45 (30 shots) starting fill about 2600

From the look of it, I am going to get about 25 good shots. Essentially these graphs show that I can get different power levels but the number of good shots in my bell curve wont change much. I'm probably going to have a go at setting it up for the rest of the season sometime this week. At that point I should know what my base fill pressure will be and how many good shots I will get before I require recharge.

I am setting the rifle up to hunt small game out to sixty yards. That is the practical limit of my shooting ability when shooting from a rest at such small targets. I don't care for the loud report the rifle has above about 48 FPE so I'm thinking that I will be keeping Kodiaks under 835 fps and JSB 25.4 grainers below 920 fps. That means a power wheel setting somewhere near 6 - 1 with a base fill to about 2700 giving maybe 20 - 25 good shots around 46 fpe +/- a couple fpe. I'm guessing refill will start around 2200 psi and take about 150 pumps... =( Plenty for a day's hunting.

Maybe next week I can shoot a couple of groups to confirm those settings.
 
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Oldspook for me I am using feet per second (fps) as opposed to foot pounds energy (fpe) to gauge the shot string. If your methods works for you that is all that matters. Look at the video I did the other day for determining the bell curve, starting and end fill pressures and fpe achieved for various pellets. See if that make any sense to you as opposed to your methods. Thanks and good luck when you go out hunting Bill

 
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Great video. Thanks! That is essentially what I am doing as well. I just chose to use FPE because of the way I sampled the shots.

What I did while sampling shots was alternate power wheel settings, 10 - 1, 8 - 1, .... , 2 - 1. That way I got a data point every five shots for each power wheel setting. That lets me make an accurate enough graph of each power curve. In order to get an accurate graph I have to calculate the energy lost in the system between samples. So between shots at any given power setting I had to calculate how many FPE was lost from teh system when firing on other power settings. I then used that information and the power generated by the last shot measured to compute how many EQUIVALENT shots I had fired on the other settings. Let me try that again... If I shot the following fpe string 50 (@10 - 1), 45 (@8 - 1), 40 (@6 - 1), 35 (@4 - 1) and the last shot at 2 - 1 was 25 fpe then I shot (50+45+40+35)/25 = ROUND(6.8) = 7. Then I shot seven EQUIVALENT shots at 25 fpe between my first sample at 2 - 1 and my second sample at 2 - 1 even though I only actually shot 4 physical shots between the two samples.. So I had a data point at #5 and #13 for power setting 2 - 1 (5 data point + 7 equivalent shots + 1 next data point).

This procedure, while not as accurate as shooting all shots at only one power wheel setting, saved me pumping my bottle up five times to get my data. The real data points are marked on the graphs I provided above. The lines between the data points are extrapolated or inferred data points. It will be accurate enough to get me real close next trip to the bench. The nice thing is that I have data for five different power wheel settings collected in one emptying of the bottle.

The contrast between the graphs also helps me to understand better what part of the system is doing exactly what at each point in each graph. Anyway thanks for the video it is great. Great shot string on that Talon also. I may regulate this Condor next spring.
 
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This is where I have ended up with Barracuda 31.02 pellets and a PW setting of 5 - 5. Seriously thinking of regulating this gun next spring but it has other issues that need addressing first. 21 shots with average energy of 45 FPE and standard deviation at 1% of muzzle velocity, good enough to get through the winter...

 
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Looks like a good shot string to work with oldspook. I have an Altaros regulator on the way to install on my Talon. Of course as you have know it will add length to the trigger pull to close to 16" way too much for my reach. Therefore I had Talon Tunes today put me on the waiting list for a CF tank that is rated to 3626 psi, weighs a pound lighter and is an 1 1/4" shorter. That should make the trigger pull length doable. In my search for aftermarket parts I found this place in Great Britain. They have some parts, bottles and regulators for AirForce rifles. Take a look if you like and see if anything interests you. Bill

http://pcptunes.com/airforce-condor-regulator-with-dual-gauge.html 
 
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Never seen a Condor with a 12 ' barrel, but non the less your 20+ shot bell curve at ~800 fps is very nice. If I was shooting a short barrel and at 5/5 on the power wheel I would be happy.

Keep in mind barrel length is the key feature in power with PCP guns, probably why I get such great speed so easily with a low Power Wheel. My 25 Condor shoots JSB KH's (34gr) at 985ish fps at 5 on the PW.

wll2506
 
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A recap of where this gun is today 12-12-2016
It is regulated. With the regulator set to 150 bar.

Power wheel set to 2-1
JSB 25.4 gr @785 fps, 17 shots with an SD well under 5 fps, literally the most consistent velocities I've ever seen. That's about 34.7 fpe.

H&N Baracuda 31.6 gr @740 fps for 15 shots with an SD even better than above. That's about 38.5 fpe.

Power wheel set to 13-1
JSB 25.4 gr @815 fps about 37.5 fpe.
H&N Baracuda 31.6 gr @755 fps about 40 fpe.

There is very little velocity difference between low power settings and high power settings. I think the regulator plenum is not optimal for a 12" .25 cal barrel. The combination of a large bore and a short barrel make the gun very inefficient at high power settings. In the end I will most likely put a .20 cal barrel on it.

Tomorrow I will do an experiment to discover the max, min, and middle power levels for both pellets, on each valve insert. That data will be added here.

There is a second thread that is part of this:
http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/altaros-regulator-3/
 
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Just for the record PCPTunes is in India. I just received the final parts for my .257 Condor upgrades from them in 5 days flat. I have an Altaros regulator on my other Condor. It is set to 2100 PSI. I purchased the Condor from a forum member here and it had been modified with Brass Hammer and the regulator. It was an SS model but it now has a 24" heavy barrel and a TalonTunes Moderator making it very long but VERY quiet. I have not tested it with the Chrony so I don't know the exact power output (I suspect it is about 50 ft/lb with 34 grain JSB's) but I can say it is "Minute of Turtle Head" accurate at 50 yards.

Thurmond
 
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I have ordered a .20 cal Lothar Walthar barrel for this rifle but these data were collected with the .25 barrel. I think that caliber is going to be just about a perfect match for this power plant as it is currently configured.

Really the information in this thread is very good justification for Airforce NOT offering a 12" barrel Condor. You can get the same performance from a Talon. The 12" barrel becomes a real airhog when you try to push large bore pellets above about 725 FPS or so. With the gun set up to shoot a JSB 25.4 gr pellet at 800 fps I could get 15 or so shots before the gun dropped off reg. Same gun set up to shoot the same pellet at 700 FPS and I got 25 shots between 3000 and 2550 psi and the reg is at 150 bar so it is likely that I'll get another 20 or 25 before it drops off the regulator. The difference is shocking. I have therefore succumbed to reason and configured the rifle to run where it wants to run.

As promised I chroned the gun today with two different pellets at low, mid, and high power settings, with no restrictor, the medium restrictor and the small restrictor, AND with and without one 0.003" top hat washer under it.

This data leads me to believe that a lighter hammer spring might be beneficial because I see that the functional adjustment range is limited to the bottom half of the actual adjustment motion.

I finally settled upon PW 4 - 1, with the 0.003 top hat washer, and the medium restrictor (valve port). I put in a fresh charge and shot 25 shots. From looking at the gauges there are at least 25 more shots in the bottle. The velocity for those was 706 fps and the SD over those 25 shots was 2.2 fps.

So here is the data as an image file:


 
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This link leads into the hunting forum so be advised before you follow it:

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/condor-strikes/

It's been a while but the Condor now still sports it's 25 cal barrel and all the changes mentioned above. I should install that .20 barrel but I just like the way this gun shoots. It absolutely stones squirrels. I don't do body shots but I believe it would be just the same deal 34 FPE and dead right there.

I never did shoot the gun to figure out what it was doing precisely before I left this thread. Well I got a compressor so shots are not so precious as they were when I was hand pumping that 490cc bottle. Here is what the gun did over the chronograph last week for 60 shots:

1577237665_5570499705e02bca18605c3.00021980_Condor-25.jpg


And after cherry picking the first 40 shots:

1577237711_14046859975e02bccf4b5f12.60062367_Condor-25-40shots.jpg


With the following stats for the first 40 shots:

1577237940_2520879535e02bdb41ee1b3.61480011_Condor-25-40shots-stats.jpg


Groups are basically one hole at 25 yards. I will add a picture here when I find the target.

and found it ...

1577240296_15626496925e02c6e8e45b69.98177610_Condor-Group.jpg

 
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I have a Condor with 3600 psi TT tank and PCPTunes V1 original regulator. Length of pull is about stock with the shorter TT tank. The higher pressure can theoretically allow for similar shot count to stock but I don't believe that the V1 regulator is designed for input pressure that high-I usually fill to 2900. I plan to get a V2 regulator from PCPTunes or an Altaros regulator which can both supposedly handle the higher input pressure thereby allowing full use of the higher pressure capacity of the tank. It is nice to have two gauges to see both tank and regulated pressure. The PCPTunes regulator comes with 2 gauges and I believe you can put a gauge into the spin-lok fitting to use with the Altaros regulator (only 1 gauge I believe) to have dual gauges with that regulator but I'm not certain of this.
 
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