Can we be honest about group sizes?

Forums Benchrest Benchrest Talk Can we be honest about group sizes?

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    EdLena
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    A lot of you were honest and I appreciate it. Thanks to your posts I now know that my groups are what most people shoot and it's not my gun or pellets. Ted Bier had a 10 shot sub MOA at 100 yards but does that really mean anything when the other 1000s of groups he shot were larger? And yes Michael I agree it's all about the wind at 100 yards.

    Thanks, Ed.

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    Richieg
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    In one outing with my Redwolf I shot ONE 5 shot group 1/2 MOA at 100 yards..but probably 50 5 shot groups over2 -4 inches to get one….thats real world where I'm at.

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by Richieg.
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    AirNGasman
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    For thirty years I've been citing average group sizes in five books and as many airgun forums; and truth is, VERY few seem to notice. So I'll ask EdLena, did you?

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    EdLena
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    AirNGasman

    For thirty years I've been citing average group sizes in five books and as many airgun forums; and truth is, VERY few seem to notice. So I'll ask EdLena, did you?

    No, I've only been into this hobby for a short time but would like to read them. Where do I find your books? I'm having trouble with the "Search" on this forum so I can't even find your posts.

    Glad to hear though that someone understands one lucky group doesn't help anyone assess there own shooting results or help decide when purchasing. Personally I'd say my average group with low winds is about 1.5" at 100 yards. If it's windy they can float 2,3 even 4" off target. Then there's the unexplained flyers! Any theories on those?

    Thanks, Ed.

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by EdLena.
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    steve123
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    This is why I don't like internet matches, like shooting groups for score or size in a contest when there's no accountability. Call me untrusting because not all people are honest.

    Examples;

    Target is less than the distance prescribed.

    Shooting tons of groups and then cherry picking the best ones and not including the rest.

    Sponsoring or bias involved – for profit shooters or people benefiting in some way.

    Emptiness, pettiness, you name it, people will do dishonest things for all kinds of reasons.

    Basically if it's too fantastic to believe then that can be a first clue.The fantastic continues, well that's another.

    But hey, the fantastic does happen. There was a documented .282" 5 shot group record in 600Y benchrest last year and another just over an inch at 1000Y. 

    I hit a tweety in the head at 100 something yards when I was a boy with irons using my old Diana, aimed real high, like 2 feet, couldn't even see the bird when I pulled the trigger, a lucky SWAG of a shot. See, right now you are questioning my honesty, that's fine, I believe me, lol. But if you show a bunch of 1/2" groups at 100Y with your air rifle I'm putting you on mental notice as a strike 1, strike 3 and you've lost all credibility.

      

     

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    John_in_Ma
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    I like the idea of a recording multiple five shot groups on video. I hope you can sit for 30min to an hour as I'll be doing this with a cam on the target with no editing. It will a week or two to get the footage. I'll post it in a new thread.

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    SDellinger
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    The type of shooting "hunting" I do does not relate to the EBR or RMAC but let me tell you these guys can shoot. No way can I shoot the knock down and speed shoots like Tom or Matt. I shoot birds at dairies with pellets and have shot many without a miss but I can pick my shots which is completely different than the speed shoots. Wind is my nemesis. The RMAC winner, second, and third place all shot much better than I can. They can read the wind and did well. I bet they can shoot great groups also. Like Michael said group shooting and hitting individual bulls is different. With all the testing with the FX Impact that the SA guys and Bob O are doing I can't wait for EBR.

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    AirNGasman
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    Ed,

    I sent you a PM.

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    Imold
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    fishinwrench

    I have what I think is called "Paper Panic". 

    I can hit a 1" diameter object (bottle cap) at 50 yards, 10 times consecutively, without any problem….But do you think I can shoot a 10 shot 1" group at 50 yards on paper?

    Nope.   🤔

    More folks have ( Target Panic )then you think, I know guys that can do nice 100-200 yard groups with their hunting rifles all day long, hit a bottle cap at 100 yards but come deer season they have trouble harvesting one, same thing with archery, they kill it on paper but out hunting or 3-D shooting  they score low and have a hard time harvesting deer also.

     Some folks Psychologically just can’t hunt but do well at a range, try to blame the equipment and don’t look at what the real problem is.

    Not all are like this but a certain percentage of folks it is the issue.

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by Imold.
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    aa_limited
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    Imold

    fishinwrench

    I have what I think is called "Paper Panic". 

    I can hit a 1" diameter object (bottle cap) at 50 yards, 10 times consecutively, without any problem….But do you think I can shoot a 10 shot 1" group at 50 yards on paper?

    Nope.   🤔

    More folks have ( Target Panic )then you think, I know guys that can do nice 100-200 yard groups with their hunting rifles all day long, hit a bottle cap at 100 yards but come deer season they have trouble harvesting one, same thing with archery, they kill it on paper but out hunting or 3-D shooting  they score low and have a hard time harvesting deer also.

     Some folks Psychologically just can’t hunt but do well at a range, try to blame the equipment and don’t look at what the real problem is.

    Not all are like this but a certain percentage of folks it is the issue.

     

    I VERY MUCH AGREE

     

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    davelarson
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    Here’s the best group of my life, 130 yards five shots. Theoben .20 cal off of two bags and a solid bench with a 50X scope. I’ve been trying to do it again for almost a year, and have not come close! The other picture is 28 shots at 100 yards with a .30 Crown, off of the same bench and bags. These are examples of what my guns can do…and what I did with them one time. I seriously doubt that I’ll ever get another group like the one at 130 yards. Although I’ll definitely keep trying. I also have a difficult time with paper targets for some reason. 

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by davelarson.
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    tommyb
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    This is a very good thread with a lot of good input from experienced BR shooters.  There are so many good takeaway's from these posts.

    I shoot at my local outdoor range about twice a week.  Up until about 6 months ago, I only shot my air guns at 50 yards.  Have a Motorhead tuned Daystate Regal with Huma in .22 caliber, an FX Royale 400 in .22 and my primary BR gun which is a RAW HM1000x HP .22 ( soon to be converted by Martin to a .30 caliber).

    I switched to shooting paper targets for BR at 100 yards about 6 months ago, and some of the responders in this post and/or others ( CC, Fuss ) have helped me with their advice and suggestions along the way.  I must say that shooting 100 yard BR paper targets with wind is humbling, and I actually do find that shooting consecutive NUAH targets ( this is what I am using at 100Y) is the best way to see "how" me and the gun are doing.  I always try and shoot at least 7 or 8 Five shot NUAH targets for a total of around 40 shots.   I also try shooting some 5-shot groups before or after the NUAH targets, and these are for grouping vs. score purposes.  So, it is normal that I will shoot several five shot groups, a fair amount of sighters; and also several ( Normally 6-8 ) NUAH 100 Yard targets in an outing. 

    Generally speaking and after about 20+ range outings at 100 yards, my CTC Average is probably in the 1.25 – 2" range with the RAW.  I kept all the targets just so I can look back and track progress.   I used to cherry pick, used to rationalize the flyer, the wind, et. al.   I did this to make "me" feel good until I started PMing and talking to some of the very fine BR shooters on this forum, and now I try and do it the correct way — at least for me.  That is, "show the good, the bad, and the ugly," and make sure I practice with a purpose and have at least a good representative total shot count of 40-60 shots for 100 yard BR analysis.  I am a casual not a competition BR shooter, but this is a great hobby and I always look to improve and step up my game.  I like the challenge and competition with myself more than anything. 

    b-t-w – The only sub MOA group I ever shot in my life so far at 100 yards was with my Anschutz .22 LR 64 MPR, which is not an air gun.  That was .62" CTC; 50/50 with four shots in the X ring. Can't do that yet with my RAW .22 HP Poly;  but there's always hope when I get back the .30 cal upgraded RAW from Martin!  

     

     

     

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    davelarson
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    Where can I get some of these NUAH targets? I almost always just shoot groups on some steel sheets and then go look if it’s a really small group lol! I end up shooting a lot of groups before I get a good one. When I measured the group of 28 shots at 100 yards I realized that it was a little over two inches and not a little group at all! I’d definitely do poorly at a match and I don’t have any skill at shooting between heart beats yet…that’s literally split second timing and it’s beyond my skill level lol! I like the idea of shooting at paper because it would slow me down and I would be more aware of each shot. Shooting the steel you just abandon a crappy group and move to a clear area to try the next group. I really like this whole thread and have enjoyed it tremendously…tommyb, that .30 Raw is going to be awesome at long range. In desperate times I sold my Raw and have always regretted it. I’ll definitely get one again someday, built as well as my Theoben and I like the side lever better than the bolt too.

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    Centercut
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    Good topic. I like to see “the good, the bad, and the ugly” as Tom says above. A good example would be the way they do the 100 yard event at Green Valley, AZ – Saguaro Classic at Quail Creek Airgun club. Five targets on right, five targets on left, five shots per target, 50 shots total. Center targets are sighters. Look at my target and you can see good, bad and ugly. It was windy that day but very few gusts. I remember holding off approx 1.5 mil for most of the targets. Bottom right is about a 1/2 inch five shot group and middle left about 3/4 inch. Some others not so great. No cherry picking here…  shot in Competition – no “do overs”, no “gimmes”, no self scoring, no discounting “flyers”, no 3 shot “groups”…

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Centercut.
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    tommyb
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    CC – Exactly what we all want to see!  Real groups in real wind conditions. 
     

     

     

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    davelarson
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    I like the rules of the Saguaro classic 100 yard event. What a good way to find out where your shooting skills are. How many sighter shots do you get? How big are the targets? I have to try this. And I’ll post honest results even though it’s going to look like a shotgun pattern lol!

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    Centercut
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    You get as many sighters as you want. We shot 30 minutes, took a 15 minute break, then shot another 30 minutes. That’s what I remember. The targets are about the same size as the EBR targets, slightly larger. It’s different than one shot per target. But I liked it…  Should have won if I hadn’t made a dumb mistake but it is what it is…  lost by 7 but only had 49 shots on my targets not 50. 
    ;(

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Centercut.
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    nomojo65
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    Here’s honest groups on this day with all conditions/pellets and rest the same, started both guns at 250bar before each group, each group 35 shots no time between shots and groups as seen with chrony  pics. Not what I hoped for!, but is what it is… (Note: last RW group was with 25.4’s)

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by nomojo65.
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    Centercut
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    Looks good to me. Nice shooting!

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    nomojo65
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    Thank you CC

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