Can we be honest about group sizes?

Forums Benchrest Benchrest Talk Can we be honest about group sizes?

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    EdLena
    Participant
    Member

    I know how it is you shoot a great group and you can't wait to tell everyone. I've done it myself. But this can be misleading and cause someone to purchase a gun anticipating the same results only to be bitterly disappointed. I'd like to know, honestly, what the AVERAGE group sizes you're getting at 100 yards and the type of gun and ammo you're using. 

    At the 2018 EBR the top 5 scores were only 211-215/250. That's an average of about 8.5 points per shot. So if one shot hits the middle of the 8 ring and on the next target it hits the middle of the 8 ring only this time on the other side of the bull's eye that's a 2" spread! In fact based on my target sheets and others I found on the net any 5 shots averaged 1.25", 10 shots 1.75" and all 25 had about a 3" spread or more if you stack them on top of each other.

    • This topic was modified 6 months ago by a Moderator.
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    Kaeokini
    Participant
    Member

    I think it all depends on the conditions your shooting with, I know if I shoot my gun with light to no wind I can get 1" @ 100 yards shooting off of a bench and with 5 to 10 mph wind it will open up to 1.5" Its funny but some shooters have to elaborate on how accurate there gun is, I say the best way to get an honest 100 yard grouping is to have it filmed or recorded. just my .02 cents.

    Aloha,

    Keone

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    c_m_shooter
    Participant
    Member

    Obviously the EBR participants are a bunch of novices compared to the experts on this site.

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    PigeonMan
    Participant
    Member

    It's just how it goes. I know some people will brag about their groups .50 inch at 100 yards. But they won't tell the whole story. So don't going buying the same gun expecting the same result. Example if someone posted their impact 30 cal doing .46 inch at 100 yards. Don't go buying an impact thinking your gonna get the same result. They are only showing the best, which may be by luck, not showing their groups at different day and different time. Wind, temp, pellets, slug, tuning, experience of the shooter, all that come to play.

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    Centercut
    Participant
    Member

    Recent thread regarding this topic.

    https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/how-many-shots-in-a-group-to-sufficiently-demonstrate-accuracy/

    I wrote this topic because at the time we were seeing a lot of posts at 100+ yards, but only 3 shots.  Having shot hundreds and hundreds of 5 shot (or more) groups, I can tell you that only 3 shots brings a lot of luck into play, and is not statistically accurate.

    What I really like to see are multiple 5 shot groups that are shot consecutively, without cherry picking the best. Like this:

    https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/groups-52-yards-edgun-r3-long/

    The book “Handloading” put out by the National Rifle Association backs up the 5 shot group with statistical analysis in an article by WM C. Davis Jr.  In terms of statistical reliability, it makes little difference if a shooter shoots two five shot groups or one ten shot group. Three shot groups were not considered since they did not accurately statistically represent the true performance of the gun.  

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by Centercut.
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    bubblerboy64
    Participant
    Member

    Very good point.   I've suggested that some of the guys that are making extreme shots on animals put up paper life sized targets at the ranges they are shooting and shoot a group on that target.   I'm not in anyway diminishing the equipment or the shooters but a one shot kill on a pigeon at over 100 yards is impressive but it's not meaningful if the reader is trying to establish a true estimate of what the gun is capable of.  

    I've got several air rifles that shoot pretty consistently 1/2 inch or less at 50 yards.  They fall apart at 100. My 25 cricket to date is the best it's probably in my hands shooting 2 1/2 inches 

    What I've been doing is setting up a paper target at 100 along with a metal swinger ( I am lucky in can do this in my back yard) .   I shoot at the paper to get zeroed (as well as I can) and then swing over onto the metal swinger.  I then shoot at least ten shots at the swinger.   If I can consistently hit the swinger (meaning 8 out of 10) then I feel I've got a pretty good handle on the guns (and my) ability is at that particular time and it does change 

    Now you have to  ask what size is the swinger.   I have a three a two and a one inch. 

    The best I can do so far is the three inch at one hundred.  I'm looking for a gun that does better.  The other thing I have noticed is if there is ANY wind to speak at of at all you can pretty much forget 100 yard shooting.    This can help you learn to dope the wind   I'm not particularly good at that. 

    That's my experience and I'd be interested in what others think or have experienced.   I think this is a more realistic (and fun) way to evaluate a guns performance.    Shooting pellet rifles at 50 yards?  Well with todays equipment I think  we all expect really good groups at 50. 100 yards separates the men from the boys.(shooter and equipment) 

    I never much liked shooting at paper but it has it's uses.   And if you do it impresses me when it's one shoot at each target.  

    I have little use for shooting air guns at 300 yards and getting worked up when the tenth shot hits the target.  Just not my thing.  I'd like to feel comfortable that my shots at live game at 50 to 75 yards is guaranteed if I do my part.  So for me if I can get a gun consistently shooting inch or a little more pretty much every time I will have what I want in an air rifle.  I honestly think 2 inches is asking a lot from an air rifle (and for me) but it's my goal for today.   If I can accomplish that I might ??? increase my goal.    

    The other thing I might add is while many will say a 2 inch group is nothing at 100 I'd say this.  My abilities probably stop at 1 inch at 100 so for me I'm looking for the best I can do as well as the gun.   You can give me (and most of the rest of you I believe) a gun that's capable of 1/4 inch at one hundred and you will not be able to consistently get those results.   I"m being honest with myself   I've shot enough to know when it's the gun and when it's me.    

    I test at long yards.  I shoot my 223 and 22-250 rifles at 300 and 400 and if it's one of those rare windless days out to 500.  I shoot at life size prairie dog metal silhouettes.   Trying to test my guns and myself at the ranges I intend to be using them.   

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    boscoebrea
    Participant
    Member

    Fact,it ain't the gun,it is your experience with it.I do not pay much attention to peoples groups because they are not my experience.

    I was just thinking about this last night,same rifle ,same barrel yet different accuracy…yes and sometimes using the same pellets.

      Many Variables…..TRUTH IS SOME PEOPLE ARE BETTER SHOTS THAN OTHERS !

    One other thing,the only pictures people see of mine are Big fish,LOL.

      Practice makes a difference…and I want to see groups,Not a group…we do 5 shot groups 5 times….then start over..funny thing= they change,that being so what really is changing?

      I am on record right now,I do not like looooog range shooting of animals by normal shooters,ya I know for some shooters it is KO.

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    davidsng
    Participant
    Member

    I've tried hard to get 10-shots in a row under 1".  Closest I came was 1.3" so far.  I'm using R5M Long in .22 with VK 24grain 2-S slugs at 50fpe. Average group in moderate wind is more like 1.75"- 2".  Even in no wind, to get a ten shot group under 1 1/2" is only 1 out of 2-3 tries or so, on a good day.  That's reality for me.

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    Michael
    Keymaster
    Keymaster

    Groups are typically easier to shoot then say 25 different targets. Most of my .25 & .30 airguns will shoot +/- 1-1.5'' at 100 yards.  My .22 Redwolf HP with 25g JSB Redesigns typically does the same.  Most influential factor is the wind.

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    Michael
    Keymaster
    Keymaster

    Centercut

    Recent thread regarding this topic.

    https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/how-many-shots-in-a-group-to-sufficiently-demonstrate-accuracy/

    I wrote this topic because at the time we were seeing a lot of posts at 100+ yards, but only 3 shots.  Having shot hundreds and hundreds of 5 shot (or more) groups, I can tell you that only 3 shots brings a lot of luck into play.

    What I really like to see are multiple 5 shot groups that are shot consecutively, without cherry picking the best. Like this:

    https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/groups-52-yards-edgun-r3-long/

    Good points @centercut I usually either shoot 5 shot groups or the entire magazine shot groups.

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    stoti
    Participant
    Member

    Honest about group size??? Bahahaha

    Seriously, if you really want to know what you and your gun are capable of, the more groups you shoot the better. I usually shoot 3, 5 shot groups when I'm testing something, before I feel comfortable. If I’m shooting a group to show off, I’ll usually shoot 10, 3 shot groups and pick the best one!  Haha!

    Stoti

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by stoti.
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    JimNM
    Participant
    Member

    Worry about your own groups.

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by JimNM.
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    gadballs9
    Participant
    Member

    bubblerboy64

    Very good point.   I've suggested that some of the guys that are making extreme shots on animals put up paper life sized targets at the ranges they are shooting and shoot a group on that target.   I'm not in anyway diminishing the equipment or the shooters but a one shot kill on a pigeon at over 100 yards is impressive but it's not meaningful if the reader is trying to establish a true estimate of what the gun is capable of.  

    I've got several air rifles that shoot pretty consistently 1/2 inch or less at 50 yards.  They fall apart at 100. My 25 cricket to date is the best it's probably in my hands shooting 2 1/2 inches 

    What I've been doing is setting up a paper target at 100 along with a metal swinger ( I am lucky in can do this in my back yard) .   I shoot at the paper to get zeroed (as well as I can) and then swing over onto the metal swinger.  I then shoot at least ten shots at the swinger.   If I can consistently hit the swinger (meaning 8 out of 10) then I feel I've got a pretty good handle on the guns (and my) ability is at that particular time and it does change 

    Now you have to  ask what size is the swinger.   I have a three a two and a one inch. 

    The best I can do so far is the three inch at one hundred.  I'm looking for a gun that does better.  The other thing I have noticed is if there is ANY wind to speak at of at all you can pretty much forget 100 yard shooting.    This can help you learn to dope the wind   I'm not particularly good at that. 

    That's my experience and I'd be interested in what others think or have experienced.   I think this is a more realistic (and fun) way to evaluate a guns performance.    Shooting pellet rifles at 50 yards?  Well with todays equipment I think  we all expect really good groups at 50. 100 yards separates the men from the boys.(shooter and equipment) 

    I never much liked shooting at paper but it has it's uses.   And if you do it impresses me when it's one shoot at each target.  

    I have little use for shooting air guns at 300 yards and getting worked up when the tenth shot hits the target.  Just not my thing.  I'd like to feel comfortable that my shots at live game at 50 to 75 yards is guaranteed if I do my part.  So for me if I can get a gun consistently shooting inch or a little more pretty much every time I will have what I want in an air rifle.  I honestly think 2 inches is asking a lot from an air rifle (and for me) but it's my goal for today.   If I can accomplish that I might ??? increase my goal.    

    The other thing I might add is while many will say a 2 inch group is nothing at 100 I'd say this.  My abilities probably stop at 1 inch at 100 so for me I'm looking for the best I can do as well as the gun.   You can give me (and most of the rest of you I believe) a gun that's capable of 1/4 inch at one hundred and you will not be able to consistently get those results.   I"m being honest with myself   I've shot enough to know when it's the gun and when it's me.    

    I test at long yards.  I shoot my 223 and 22-250 rifles at 300 and 400 and if it's one of those rare windless days out to 500.  I shoot at life size prairie dog metal silhouettes.   Trying to test my guns and myself at the ranges I intend to be using themxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by gadballs9.
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    PerkyVal
    Participant
    Member

    Guys claiming something is much smaller than it is?

    That's new. :p

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    sonny
    Participant
    Member

    PerkyVal

    Guys claiming something is much smaller than it is?

    That's new. :p

    well there is a difference between groups and fish if that's what you mean😉 

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    Padd
    Participant
    Member

    Isn't bigger always better? lol

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    stoti
    Participant
    Member

    Val—-

    hahaha!!! Classic!

    Stoti

     

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    bucketboy
    Participant
    Member

    All my guns shoot tight one hole groups if

     

    (a) I only shoot one pellet 

    (b) I cellotape the target to the end of the barrel.

     

    if I don’t do either then there are numerous factors that ruin accuracy but my very best group was 5 consecutive shots onto a 15mm spinner at 100 yards with a .177  theoben mfr using air arms diabalo field 8.4grn @780fps

    This is a 4 shot group with the same gun at 45yards, for scale the pellet is .177

     

    Bb

     

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by bucketboy.
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    bandg
    Participant
    Member

    "Can we be honest about group sizes?"

     

    Nope.

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    fishinwrench
    Participant
    Member

    I have what I think is called "Paper Panic". 

    I can hit a 1" diameter object (bottle cap) at 50 yards, 10 times consecutively, without any problem….But do you think I can shoot a 10 shot 1" group at 50 yards on paper?

    Nope.   🤔

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