Any true sub moa airgun challenge

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I've often thrown around the "sub moa" claim because yes, some of my guns have produced those groups from time to time. I even have a QB78-based pellet shooter that has done so with JSB 18gr---with the original barrel even.

With that said, I know I am not capable of meeting a 10 shot 10 target challenge. I have a couple guns that MAY be capable, when tethered to a regulated tank, but I know I am not up to the task.
 
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Hmm. I can see this thread is gonna stir folks up a bit , I guess if little johny coMrs over and says I just stacked them at 100 I would say awesome job here have a cup of coffee , who am I to call him a liar, if he’s happy, who am I to ruin it for him. There is enough BS goin on in today’s world to argue over this issue, just get out shoot have fun if ya hit it great, if ya don’t still great At least you don’t stay inside worrying over the virus/bio-weapon crap like to many I see doing just that.
 
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A gun shooting under a 1/2” at 50 yards is an MOA gun ... 

It may not be a 100 yard MOA gun but it’s still an MOA gun. Why not say it’s not an MOA gun if it won’t shoot 2.09” at 200 yards?
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Thats exactly the point Im making 100yd moa standard as airgun or any subsonic light weight projectile shooting platform should not be used to determine accuracy . Environment plays too big role to determine what the gun, projectile and shooter are doing. 100yd sub moa is firearm standard and is well suited for supersonic speeds with heavy high bc projectiles that spend bit over 0.1second to travel that distance if we scale it to airguns we have flight times 3-6x of that with a projectile that is significantly better on catching wind. It dosent change anything for better by cherrypickin or reducing ammount of shots. Its just pure 100% self betrayal. We all simply live under laws of physics and that is just a standard to determine accuracy you might get when stretching out to extended ranges or sniper trying to hit torso size target mile away. Airguns are really good platforms to train shooting especially to optimise hold after shot is fired (our barreltimes are insanely high compared to firearms and small changes on pull and hold after have far more effect on our accuracy) but it is really important to realise real world effects on slow moving projectiles when determining ethical killshot etc and thinking something can do something 10times more accurate then it can actually do it dosent really help. 
 
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https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups/118-279218/ this actually fits perfectly on ur picture. Your gun might be much much much further from shooting Moa then you think.

Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine approaches accuracy testing in a scientific manner. He uses a machine rest for testing and fires 10-shot groups. Here are his own words on the subject from one of his articles:



"There are stories of a single bullet that for no explained reason flies out of what might have been a tight cluster. This often occurs with a three-shot string and many times with a five-shot string. If you're lucky enough to fire a group without a flier, you can end up with a very tight group. However, usually what happens if another five or seven shots are fired to complete a 10-shot string, other bullets fill in the space between the main group and the flier to make a reasonably rounded group. Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future.



The problem with 10-shot groups is that when you report them, everyone thinks you aren't shooting very well or that the ammunition is not good because the group sizes are so much larger than three- or five-shot groups. Also, when we're firing three- or five-shot groups with a flier, it is only natural to assume that it was caused by a flinch or “pulling” the shot. Therefore, since the flier was our own fault, the tendency is to eliminate it from any reporting of group size."

Here is another quote about 3-shot groups from another Precision Reloadingarticle by Rick Jamison."Some shooters may have two or three three-shot groups to prove the load is really accurate. It really takes more shooting than that to make a judgment on a load’s accuracy potential. Three shots forming a tight cluster is nice to look at, but it is little more than an accident. Shooting three-shot groups to see how everything is working is essentially a waste of time and components."
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I agree with this 100%. A 3 shot group isn't anything. I rarely ever shoot in wind. There can be very large differences between a 3 and 5 shot group with no wind. 

Also look at the poi compared to poa in your 3 shot group clusters. If you can line them up and all are within MOA that's different than having "sub-MOA" 3 shot groups but shifting alittle around the target which opens it up a bit.

Case in point. These groups aren't close to each other in terms of poi unless there were odd aim points.





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https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups/118-279218/ this actually fits perfectly on ur picture. Your gun might be much much much further from shooting Moa then you think.

Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine approaches accuracy testing in a scientific manner. He uses a machine rest for testing and fires 10-shot groups. Here are his own words on the subject from one of his articles:



"There are stories of a single bullet that for no explained reason flies out of what might have been a tight cluster. This often occurs with a three-shot string and many times with a five-shot string. If you're lucky enough to fire a group without a flier, you can end up with a very tight group. However, usually what happens if another five or seven shots are fired to complete a 10-shot string, other bullets fill in the space between the main group and the flier to make a reasonably rounded group. Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future.



The problem with 10-shot groups is that when you report them, everyone thinks you aren't shooting very well or that the ammunition is not good because the group sizes are so much larger than three- or five-shot groups. Also, when we're firing three- or five-shot groups with a flier, it is only natural to assume that it was caused by a flinch or “pulling” the shot. Therefore, since the flier was our own fault, the tendency is to eliminate it from any reporting of group size."

Here is another quote about 3-shot groups from another Precision Reloadingarticle by Rick Jamison."Some shooters may have two or three three-shot groups to prove the load is really accurate. It really takes more shooting than that to make a judgment on a load’s accuracy potential. Three shots forming a tight cluster is nice to look at, but it is little more than an accident. Shooting three-shot groups to see how everything is working is essentially a waste of time and components."
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Sorry but I go by what has proven to werq for me in the past several decades I have been doing this. I don't like to waste money on ammo and I don't want the wind to mess up my testing so three shots werqs very well. No matter what anyone says. Many others do the same. Like I said a good three shot group tells me that I likely have a good tune and many three shot groups tell me that I do have a good tune. The five shot groups say the same. Good ten shot groups for my airgun or the .22 long rifle rounds don't happen very often where I shoot due to wind conditions. 

The info you are quoting from is powder burner stuff and does not correlate to airguns as there is no powder involved. They are completely different animals in that arena.

When an airgun is tuned properly there is a repeatable and extremely consistent amount of air released at a very precise pressure. This repeatable release of a measured amount of air from the gun rivals and usually beats the consistency of any firearm in projectile ES.

For me to even match the accuracy of my Impact at 100 yards I have to buy .22 ammo that costs $.20 a round and then that only matches it's accuracy it does not beat it. Or use my Grendel and $1.00 a round ammo once again to only match the accuracy. Dealing with the wind is something we all have to learn to do with our airguns or the .22LR. It's not so hard with the Grendel but it is a bit harder on the wallet.

I have been shooting my Impact for a year and a half now and it actually does shoot that well regardless of what you think/feel about it.

There are many more MOA folks out there so I think you have a mute point here.

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Yes man you are free to shoot what ever size groups that dosent bother me one bit. It seems to be you who is taking it really personally that me, any national rifle team, benchrest shooter or marksman approves anything under 10shots. In the end this is my thread of asking 10shot groups to get real valid data im interested to see. If you wish to see something different you are free to make your own thread with "true sub moa 3shot airgun" or what ever but please stop spamming your own agenda on thread that is meant to see if there is any serious shooters with 10shot data since its seems to be under rocks to find. 
 
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This sounds a discussion about terminology. Jiikuu's definition of "true sub moa" seems to be 10 targets of 10 shots each within moa(approx. 1") at 100 yards(I'm assuming that each 10 shot groups would be measured moa around a single point of aim on each target?). So... that's gonna pretty rare. 

I think when most people refer to a gun as moa, they usually mean that it is CAPABLE of shooting multiple shots within moa at a SPECIFIED distance(MOA is an angular term that can only be quantified at a stated distance). Sometimes people refer to a gun as "MOA all day long" at a certain distance. This usually means that the gun will accomplish this feat MOST of the time under the conditions that person has tried it.

This reminds me of a thread last May called: "What does 'hole in hole' mean to you". A lot of opinions; no solid definition established.

The AGN is a great community of a tremendous diversity of airgun enthusiasts. Timid posters, thoughtful posters, helpful posters, overzealous posters, brash posters, and tactful posters. All are proud of their equipment that they have purchased with their hard earned money and want to share their experiences in their own ways. Sometimes different experience levels, or points of view on a particular subject will lead to disagreements. Almost all airgunners that I have had any contact with are genuinely GOOD people at heart.

Plus, everyone has their own idea of what "accurate" means. Is it groups in relation to MOA? Hole in hole? Shoots like a laser? Hits what I aim at all the time? Minute Of Sparrow, Minute of Squirrelhead, Minute Of Pigeon? At the end of the day, the only person you have to please with the accuracy of your gun is YOU.

It is fun and helpful to share information, but I try not to take everything I hear or see as gospel. I try everything myself. Only then will I truly know what works for me. What might work for one person in one situation, may not work for another in their situation.


 
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This sounds a discussion about terminology. Jiikuu's definition of "true sub moa" seems to be 10 targets of 10 shots each within moa(approx. 1") at 100 yards(I'm assuming that each 10 shot groups would be measured moa around a single point of aim on each target?). So... that's gonna pretty rare. 

I think when most people refer to a gun as moa, they usually mean that it is CAPABLE of shooting multiple shots within moa at a SPECIFIED distance(MOA is an angular term that can only be quantified at a stated distance). Sometimes people refer to a gun as "MOA all day long" at a certain distance. This usually means that the gun will accomplish this feat MOST of the time under the conditions that person has tried it.

This reminds me of a thread last May called: "What does 'hole in hole' mean to you". A lot of opinions; no solid definition established.

The AGN is a great community of a tremendous diversity of airgun enthusiasts. Timid posters, thoughtful posters, helpful posters, overzealous posters, brash posters, and tactful posters. All are proud of their equipment that they have purchased with their hard earned money and want to share their experiences in their own ways. Sometimes different experience levels, or points of view on a particular subject will lead to disagreements. Almost all airgunners that I have had any contact with are genuinely GOOD people at heart.

Plus, everyone has their own idea of what "accurate" means. Is it groups in relation to MOA? Hole in hole? Shoots like a laser? Hits what I aim at all the time? Minute Of Sparrow, Minute of Squirrelhead, Minute Of Pigeon? At the end of the day, the only person you have to please with the accuracy of your gun is YOU.

It is fun and helpful to share information, but I try not to take everything I hear or see as gospel. I try everything myself. Only then will I truly know what works for me. What might work for one person in one situation, may not work for another in their situation.

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GREAT post! 
 
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Remember he said 10 shot groups and then 10 groups at the same time. I take that to mean a 100 shot group under an inch. He believes that is impossible. May not be impossible but I wouldn’t believe it so unless I saw it done.
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+1

“ I wouldn’t believe it so unless I saw it done.” You and me both; and many others too.

My overall point to the OP was that while air guns are capable of shooting occasional sub MOA groups at 100 yards, I believe that doing this with 25, 50 or more total shots is not likely. It’s just my belief and has nothing to do with me not being able to do it. 

Show me a thread where we can all see five or ten 5-shot Sub MOA groups at 100 yards. That’s five or ten ( 25 or 50 ) shots that are sub MOA at 100. 

if this were true there would have been a lot of 245-250 winning EBR 100 yard scoring cards in the last five years. 
 
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https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups/118-279218/ this actually fits perfectly on ur picture. Your gun might be much much much further from shooting Moa then you think.

Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine approaches accuracy testing in a scientific manner. He uses a machine rest for testing and fires 10-shot groups. Here are his own words on the subject from one of his articles:

Here is another quote about 3-shot groups from another Precision Reloadingarticle by Rick Jamison."Some shooters may have two or three three-shot groups to prove the load is really accurate. It really takes more shooting than that to make a judgment on a load’s accuracy potential. Three shots forming a tight cluster is nice to look at, but it is little more than an accident. 

__________________

Great article and totally agree that while three shot groups are good for sight in or testing, they do not show a gun’s accuracy or precision. Ten shots or more is ideal, but multi five shot groups are almost as good.
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Thanks guys good to see there are actually ppl who agree with me atleast to some point. 

Il explain how I see things is that 3shots is way too little to determine anything and shooting 3shot groups on different aimingpoints as useless. If it would be 3shot on paper then next paper top of that while aim point staying same and 3shots again and repeating this lets say 33times and then taking that bottom paper out to see true 99shot group pattern would probably give you pretty decent and accurate natural shot pattern and would be really different what that pattern did look after 3shots and most likely alot larger unless your first 3shots were the most furthest points of your natural shot pattern which is really unlikely. To me someone saying sub moa 100yd gun is real red flag. To me that means that when ever you take that rifle and fire it its within moa circle at 100yd as long as you do your part it should be there close to 100% of the time. 10x 10shots is really brutal and honest accuracy test but it is also really good way to see how your gun is actually doing no matter what. All I say is that I feel our airgunning community uses that term way too often with way too little data to back it when we speak about 100yds and beyond. 50yds no problem airguns can surely meet that atleast some of them. 
 
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Joonas

i agree with your last sentence. My offer to anyone on the AGN forum.

If you ever have the opportunity to travel to NC and would like to shoot your air gun or mine at 100 yards at my range, PLEASE.....PM me. I would very much enjoy the companionship! 


I will pay the $40 guest fee, I will pay for your lunch, and I will pay you $50 bucks for each of your 5-shot sub MOA groups up to Five groups at 100yards. It will be cordial, and it would be worth it to me personally to loose my money to such a shooter. 

This offer is for anyone on the forum. It’s not gambling; just a friendly gesture. 

if this is not allowed on AGN rules, I will withdraw. 

Tom 




 
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Do you think...that with the world going to a deep black hole..I'm going to take the only thing that relaxes me . To that extreme. Put me cans at few hundred yards I be fine .. is great if a gun could print a dime at 100y but who cares about it to take it that seriously...unless you are making money in competition n the rent depends on it .. then is a pretty serious thing..
 
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I used to shoot with some guys shooting three shot groups at 50 yards outside in the wind and this is typical for me...the wind was every which way and targets were on a berm so it was a chore. Fun though.



50 YD benchrest 012.1610249267.JPG


View from the bench

50 YD benchrest 004.1610249595.JPG

 
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