Airgun accuracy is not just a recent phenomenon.

freaking amazing. yrrah, how about springers and long distance accuracy. and lastly, and I feel like a tard even mentioning this, but up until last year I never knew that was your name spelled backwards, lol

Harry most of the newcomers think it is, us old timers know better. My problem I cant shoot as good as I did 20 30 40 years ago, new or old gun.

Got to give credit to the drag stablized diablo pellet design IMO. Try obtaining that accuracy with spherical projectiles, or in fact any other type of projectile currently available and you'll be hard pressed to surpass it. 

Interesting how the internet has most thinking whats new and spoken of is recent news or accomplishments.

Lol .... 30+ some years ago some of the shots made with what was modern air weapons of that time would be in todays new age of awareness of the modern air weapon be simply jaw dropping.

Yes indeed that bar has been raised further with PCP development ... Now if this generation and there modern air guns can withstand the next 50+ years when looked at by future generations ... those future generations may indeed look at this time as being instrumental to what is there reality come that time.

Are we in a golden era of air gun tech ? or just a chapter of it's further to be realized far more advanced future ?



Food for thought

My first high end PCP, an Alan Zasadny tuned Theoben Rapid MKII in .25 cal was a consistent sub-MOA shooter at 100. This was probably 15 years ago, back when .25 cal pellet choice was limited to just a couple of options and regulators were extremely rare. 

Accuracy in PCP airguns is definitely not a new thing but from what I’ve seen, it is more common to have an exceptional shooting rifle straight from the factory. In the before years, it was common to HAVE to send your PCP out to a tuner and have everything ironed out so it shot well, unless you got lucky. Now there are a number of guns from FX, Daystate, AGT, WAR, Taipan, etc. that require zero tuning other than maybe hammer spring tension to bring the velocity into the range of the pellet you choose.

I liked your postings back on the old YF showing what the FWB300 could do in still air. Trying to sell one right now but no takers so maybe I need to attempt to replicate your work.



Casey

freaking amazing. yrrah, how about springers and long distance accuracy. and lastly, and I feel like a tard even mentioning this, but up until last year I never knew that was your name spelled backwards, lol

Click to expand...

I remember Harry doing this originally. Josh, I remember you just getting into this hobby. For springers. Do you remember a guy called Mike, use to post dime sized springer groups at 100 yards?

I’m not sure I ever believed it. Yes, some can but he had an awful lot of amazing groups. Bad on me if it was true but rested, right pellets, quality rifle it can be done. He was an extensive owner. 

At 100 with a springer & small tight group you better be weighing & sizing if you’re barrel isn’t doing it well at choke. It must be a windless day, early morning or night shooting. 

I can believe it as I’ve shot many 3 shot 1/2” at 75 yards but that’s just me shooting off porch & knees. Sub 1/2”@100 5 shots? YES, if I still owned my AZ Rapid .22

The problem with all of this is guys (myself included ) shoot groups until I get a good one.

For the most part I double the size of the group reported. If “you” say it shoots a half inch I’m going to suggest it might be consistently shoot an inch to an inch and one half which is still darned good. 

Or do you think I’m being too skeptical? 

Forget the gun for a minute and consider just how good a shooter you have to be to shoot a half inch at 100 Maybe one guy in 20 can do it given a perfect gun and perfect conditions.

Or again am I of little faith? 

The problem with all of this is guys (myself included ) shoot groups until I get a good one.

For the most part I double the size of the group reported. If “you” say it shoots a half inch I’m going to suggest it might be consistently shoot an inch to an inch and one half which is still darned good. 

Or do you think I’m being too skeptical? 

Forget the gun for a minute and consider just how good a shooter you have to be to shoot a half inch at 100 Maybe one guy in 20 can do it given a perfect gun and perfect conditions.

Or again am I of little faith? 

Click to expand...

I’d say your statement is accurate. 

I watch shooters put some small holes in targets using both .22 (powder) and "air" rifles at the 84 Summer Olympics in Chino (SoCal.).

That's 35 years ago.



Mike

"

skeptical? depends on the " You " some well known folks oh yes I believe whatever they post ( like Harry) these people are easy to verify as real . I have a friend who has shot true sub-moa with well well over 100 different air rifle, he doesn't post anywhere but I'll just take his word of it every time. Now it does seem the U.S. airgun scene has recently been over taken by SO many sub-moa shooters that a little gain-o-salt might be needed?

And, in the Good Ole Days ( cira 2000) one could purchase a new Pre-charged air rifle ( from any country ) and expect the orings/seals to last 10+ years. Often fine walnut and deep bluing, match triggers, barrels that out shot 95+% of shooters.

Folks are seeking the latest greatest, fine but thinking there is any new barrel ( barrel tech ) that WILL give you some advantage - even if you are a flawless shooter ). I've seen a '40's Crosman .22 barrel on a fine pcp because it was a "Golden Barrel", rare but hey. 

I'm sure as soon as we have even more "new" we will have even more marksman shooters as soon as they are delivered, teehee.



Great post Harry. I really liked FX ( mine wasn't labeled FX but same rifle) back in the day and really do not see airguns shooting any smaller groups than they ever have,

in the right hands.



John

Talking about how people define accuracy is akin to talking about politics. Everyone has their own belief and the discussions can become downright hostile. Lol

I mostly live in the centerfire world, shooting precision centerfire rifles where sub MOA accuracy is almost expected. That said, I shoot enough to know what my personal limitations are as far shooting small groups. 

With airguns, shooting a small group is extremely dependent on many things aside from the shooter, so while I definitely give a nod to the gent pulling the trigger, there are other elements that must be just right to get that small group. Changes in the environmental variables, slight differences in pellet weight, pellet deformities, pressure changes, etc all play a HUGE part in your outcome. In other words, you could take a true, honest to goodness sub MOA shooter, give him a true sub MOA rifle and the chance of shooting a sub MOA group is still not close to a guarantee.

A 1 mile per hour, full value wind change will introduce nearly 1” of deviation in Impact ( derived from a .25 cal 33.95gr JSB @875 FPS - 30 yard zero @ sea level). The external ballistics of the drag stabilized diablo pellets is horrid. A 1 mile per hour change in wind is not detectable by a shooter and even with live instruments detecting wind, it would be difficult. 

Theoretically speaking, we could test the absolute accuracy of our airguns by shooting them in climate controlled shooting tunnels like they use for training the olympians. Clamp the rifle solid to a bench, use a mechanical firing device, weight sorted pellets - basically remove the human element. 

I have shot several sub MOA groups with my PCP’s but every time I do I am honestly surprised. It’s not something I expect. Are my rifles capable, yes... probably... am I capable, yes... I am positive of that.



Just my 2 pesos. 

"...With airguns, shooting a small group is extremely dependent on many things aside from the shooter..."

~~~~~~~~~



Agreed!

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I do believe this accuracy is attainable. Just not consistently. These tiny groups yesterday nor today can be accomplished in 5 consecutive 5 shot groups in my opinion. Maybe 1 or 2 of 5 groups and that out of a few attempts of these 5 consecutive groups. 

I certainly agree that the level of precision spoken of and shown in this post can be done. The fact that it is rare is evident; why take pictures and document something that happens all the time? 

I am confident that I own several PCPs that can do it. I have the faith that I and the equipment can achieve such precision but not for five consecutive 5-shot groups. But I won’t stop trying because I do have the faith that it will be accomplished one day.

Warm regards from Texas,

Derrick