I have some observations that have developed over the years. I'm interested to know others thoughts based on your experience. PCP airguns are just fragile compared to firearms. Case in point. I have a 22-250 that used to ride around on the dash of my pickup while we were hound hunting for YEARS. This was my coyote gun and back then a stretched coyote hide was worth a tank of gas. A BIG deal. Also I had a little 10-22 Rugar that was always behind the seat or barrel down leaning against the seat. I still shoot them both, and to my knowledge I have not adjusted the sights for 40 years. In the last couple of years I've gotten involved with PCP's. Great guns. Great fun. BUT I handle them like they are made of glass. If you bump them the POI can change. You NEVER set them barrel down with pressure on the end of the barrel. If your shooting on the bench you can change the POI by making a change in anything. Bags, hold, pressure on the stock and so on. Give it a try next time your shooting on the bench. Purposely twist your stock one way and then the other checking POI. I'm not saying that they are still not deadly. Shooting house sparrows at 50-60 yards, they don't stand a chance, BUT accuracy for head shots is just not consistently there. I've noticed this on a number of different brands. Springers on the other had seem to be a lot tougher and more tolerant to bumping about. At least my old FWB 124 is not affected by bumping. So some questions for the group. Do others notice this, or is it just me? Are there any PCP's out there that accuracy is not affected by bumps, temps and the like. For a comparison. Is there any brand of PCP you feel confident enough in to just throw on the back seat of the truck and the accuracy will be there first shot every time? Lets hear your ideas
air guns are fragile
- Thread starter Kitplanenut
- Start date
I agree with everything stated above. I too have recently got into pcp airguns....and they're not cheap. I want someone to make a threaded barrel to reciever airgun with bottle out front like a rifle. No shroud.....all barrel. Just thread the end of the barrel for a moderator. Should be even more stable than a powder burner because the barrel woudd not heat up while shooting it. I would want the barrel solid and contoured like a rifle. thick breech and tapered towards the end. When someone starts making this dream rifle......Im on board and will be standing at the front of the line. Weight does not bother me and actually helps me offhand. I can certainly understand this woukd not be for everyone tho.....it would certainly tip the scales.
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I disagree.
One of my permissions has a lot of cattle, horses, goats, and even free-range chickens. I guess I'm paranoid, because I always take my bullet trap and a fresh target with me. This allows a few sighters to be safely made just to make sure the gun is shooting where I aim. The only time I have had to change the scope settings, is when I use a different pellet type or weight. Even then, going back to my favorite pellet, is a matter of reseting the scope back to the zero points.
I will agree with you, that shooting any of the nitro piston airguns is a lesson in frustration. That is why I've gotten rid of both of them.
My 397 pump gun is two years old, and it still shoots exactly when I set it originally. And it has been banged about a lot.
One of my permissions has a lot of cattle, horses, goats, and even free-range chickens. I guess I'm paranoid, because I always take my bullet trap and a fresh target with me. This allows a few sighters to be safely made just to make sure the gun is shooting where I aim. The only time I have had to change the scope settings, is when I use a different pellet type or weight. Even then, going back to my favorite pellet, is a matter of reseting the scope back to the zero points.
I will agree with you, that shooting any of the nitro piston airguns is a lesson in frustration. That is why I've gotten rid of both of them.
My 397 pump gun is two years old, and it still shoots exactly when I set it originally. And it has been banged about a lot.
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I'm with you on that Kit !! My PCP would change point of impact if I didn't set them in the closet just so , if the barrel leaned against the wall no way it would shoot same place tomorrow. It sucked cause I treat my crossbow and deer rifle like I stole em ...My pcps I had to treat like it was a rental and I was gonna have to pay for damages . The one and only PCP I had that held zero always was a Tiapan Mutant . Nothing else .
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As a fresh noob with a Wildcat the poi shifting drove me nuts until I learned to handle it like glass as OP has put it. Now it rides but down on the passenger seat with the seat leaning back pretty good and a bungee cord lightly holding it from laying over side to side for safety's sake. No more POI shifts unless I bump the barrel getting it out of the truck. This happens regularly.
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As someone who has never owned a PCP I had no idea they were like that. I have no use for a gun that can not take a bump. As much as I love shooting all of my guns are purchased with one intention in mind - hunting. If a gun can`t take the rigors of hunting what is the point of ownership? I guess I had better stick to break barrels and pumpers.
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I have no issue with pcp's being fragile. However, I won't own a pcp that doesn't have a barrel band. Not just a barrel band, but one that can be or is already drilled and tapped with set screws to fully capture the barrel or shroud or atleast a way to put shims in the band to hold it tight. Keeping the barrel/shroud rigid is the only way for me. I can grab any gun I own and know it will hit where I aim it. I won't own guns I can't trust!!
Never any issues with quality springers or pumpers.
I also believe that alot of claimed poi changes are due to other factors. Wind, pellets, bad shooting, etc. Not that some aren't legit issues, but some are other factors. Worked on alot of guns that had poi issues that turned out to be operator issues.
Never any issues with quality springers or pumpers.
I also believe that alot of claimed poi changes are due to other factors. Wind, pellets, bad shooting, etc. Not that some aren't legit issues, but some are other factors. Worked on alot of guns that had poi issues that turned out to be operator issues.
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My Marauder is dinged, scratched, bumped and banged. I haven't adjusted the scope in a year. I used it all summer, bumping it around and adding new scratches to the shroud, killed hundreds of ground squirrels with head shots past 50 yards. Just the other day I shot a 1in spinner 6 in a row (had 6 left in the magazine) from 70 yards rested on my tailgate with a 15mph crosswind. My rifle doesn't seem to require gentle treatment to perform. I'll add some pics of its added character when I get home.
Even with this it doesn't shift POI.
Even with this it doesn't shift POI.
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My Marauder was moved twice in 3 years, and stored in a soft case in a damp basement for most of that time.
I got it out to shoot it two weeks ago for the first time, and it was shooting just a bit left; maybe 1/4" at 15 yards. I consider that pretty good.
Let's consider the reason behind it though:
A PCP airgun has its power source as part of the gun. It's extra weight, rather than having it as part of the ammo. The barrels are also longer than PBs' sometimes, because of the extra length of the shroud. (there's no point in shrouding a PB rifle, unless it's a 45 or something) As such, airguns are already more bulky and heavy than PBs. They don't want to overbuild them with thicker steel and make them even HEAVIER.
PBs handles tons more pressure than airguns. Probably tens of thousands of PSI in the chamber area. Scopes tend to be bigger too, since we like them to have adjustable objectives and they're often built to withstand reverse recoil for springers. But the scope mounts aren't as solid. They usually clamp on, rather than screw down, so they're easier to bump out of whack. (Weaver style could be better, when it is machined into the receiver)
I lean my Marauder gently in a corner of a room, with the barrel against the wall or against the scope.
I think if they made the scope rings more solidly mounted, it would alleviate a lot of the problem. Like screwed down to the receiver.
I guess if you have a high-end PCP, you should just invest in a nice hard case, if you want to be able to toss it around.
Keep in mind too, that with PCP airguns, you're paying up front for the propulsion. After that, we only have to buy pellets. We don't have to deal with legal regulation as much.
I got it out to shoot it two weeks ago for the first time, and it was shooting just a bit left; maybe 1/4" at 15 yards. I consider that pretty good.
Let's consider the reason behind it though:
A PCP airgun has its power source as part of the gun. It's extra weight, rather than having it as part of the ammo. The barrels are also longer than PBs' sometimes, because of the extra length of the shroud. (there's no point in shrouding a PB rifle, unless it's a 45 or something) As such, airguns are already more bulky and heavy than PBs. They don't want to overbuild them with thicker steel and make them even HEAVIER.
PBs handles tons more pressure than airguns. Probably tens of thousands of PSI in the chamber area. Scopes tend to be bigger too, since we like them to have adjustable objectives and they're often built to withstand reverse recoil for springers. But the scope mounts aren't as solid. They usually clamp on, rather than screw down, so they're easier to bump out of whack. (Weaver style could be better, when it is machined into the receiver)
I lean my Marauder gently in a corner of a room, with the barrel against the wall or against the scope.
I think if they made the scope rings more solidly mounted, it would alleviate a lot of the problem. Like screwed down to the receiver.
I guess if you have a high-end PCP, you should just invest in a nice hard case, if you want to be able to toss it around.
Keep in mind too, that with PCP airguns, you're paying up front for the propulsion. After that, we only have to buy pellets. We don't have to deal with legal regulation as much.
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G
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Let me ask you this. At what price would you consider taking better care of a PB? $500, $1000, $2000? Also how much would you be willing to spend on a PB with the same type of accuracy you can achieve from a high end airgun and then just throw it on the dash?
I would never think to just throw around, on the dash or behind the seat a 3000-4500psi potential bomb. In that aspect only every pcp should be handled with care regardless of potential poi shift.
I would never think to just throw around, on the dash or behind the seat a 3000-4500psi potential bomb. In that aspect only every pcp should be handled with care regardless of potential poi shift.
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Some are, some not so much.
Roz's rifle at a State match, he also very often grabs the barrel and used it as a staff to help get up from the seated position, never any poa/poi shift just built so that there would not be any shifting problems unless you really beat the heck out of it ( read actual damage ). Roz certainly is not the only one who does NOT pamper there RAW. O do know of a depredation hunter using the same model but in .30 who literally drops it into the bed of his pickup and drives all even on the over a large ranch, no issues.
Then again my old style AA410 has been bumped , leaned, bounced ( okay never anything like a four foot drop but...) and it has never shifted impact in 10 years.
I've seen a really good shooting marauder, as long as you didn't move the sucker even just a bit on a bad, not being a tuner, after checking all I could I used JB weld to secure the barrel in breech, solid there after.
John
Roz's rifle at a State match, he also very often grabs the barrel and used it as a staff to help get up from the seated position, never any poa/poi shift just built so that there would not be any shifting problems unless you really beat the heck out of it ( read actual damage ). Roz certainly is not the only one who does NOT pamper there RAW. O do know of a depredation hunter using the same model but in .30 who literally drops it into the bed of his pickup and drives all even on the over a large ranch, no issues.
Then again my old style AA410 has been bumped , leaned, bounced ( okay never anything like a four foot drop but...) and it has never shifted impact in 10 years.
I've seen a really good shooting marauder, as long as you didn't move the sucker even just a bit on a bad, not being a tuner, after checking all I could I used JB weld to secure the barrel in breech, solid there after.
John
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I have to be very careful with my Marauder. Lean it against the wall or bump the shroud and it time to go to the bench and reset the zero. If I am very careful it will hold zero. The receiver and bbls are so much lighter than a rifle and it shows. I would love to have one that would not shift.
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I have even considered jb welding the barrel to the reciever......then jb welding the shroud.....then jb welding the shroud to barrel contact spacer towards the end of the barrel. Kinda extreme I know.......would probably never actually do it. I bet that would improve poi shift. So long as maintenance could still be carried out. If you could still get to the valve etc and everything else.
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I do agree in many cases but there is a lot more going on in a PCP than a simple 10/22 or bolt action 22-250.
Many more sensitive and finer made parts. If I kept my PCP airgun like my one rifle out in shop with no heat during the winter the o-rings would be done within first few weeks of January.
That being said I have beaten the crap out of my one Career 202S 9mm and the thing always works great and shoots very well! My older Air Arms S410 has been equally abused and still shoots 1/2" at 50 yards and the barrel has not been cleaned in 6 years with several thousand plus rounds down its bore.
Many more sensitive and finer made parts. If I kept my PCP airgun like my one rifle out in shop with no heat during the winter the o-rings would be done within first few weeks of January.
That being said I have beaten the crap out of my one Career 202S 9mm and the thing always works great and shoots very well! My older Air Arms S410 has been equally abused and still shoots 1/2" at 50 yards and the barrel has not been cleaned in 6 years with several thousand plus rounds down its bore.
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My marauder was one hole groups at 50 yards, Until you leaned it on the wall with the barrel. Or bumped it, Or put it in the gun case and carried it in the field...
Now resite that Marauder .25 in and it was a marvel to shoot,
It just taught me to baby my PCP guns and I still do with my 22 and 25 Crickets and my 22 Mutant, The Marauder taught me a HABIT and I still got it...
Teat them like glass,,, Old habits are hard to break.
Mike
Now resite that Marauder .25 in and it was a marvel to shoot,
It just taught me to baby my PCP guns and I still do with my 22 and 25 Crickets and my 22 Mutant, The Marauder taught me a HABIT and I still got it...
Teat them like glass,,, Old habits are hard to break.
Mike
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Some interesting observations. Spysir's observation on the RAW is really interesting. That's the way these guns should be. Any other RAW owners out there?
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My BSA R10 and S10 have a heavier barrel than an Mrod and its floated. I can lean them on whatever I want without fear of changing the poi. I also dont have to worry about banging the end of the barrel causing a poi change. I have an S510 that has a barrel band that actually holds the shroud and barrel snug with no play. I can treat it the same way without worry. The only problem with the S510 is if you hit it hard enough to shift the barrel band it causes tension on the barrel in one direction changing the poi. When that happens poi will be off but a simple realignment of the barrel band fixes that. It takes a very hard whack to shift the band over so it would be something outside of normal use or simply leaning the rifle against an object. The Mrod on the other hand has a very flimsy barrel and a band that doesnt hold it but floats the shroud inside of the band.
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I have Huben and Mrod .25. Both are arguable very roboust (and extremely modifyable) designs.
both are flimsy and finiky IMHO - squirrel guns priced in elefant range.
Main problem IMHO - skinny floating barrels - where manufacturers save big. Common, PCP rifle does not need floating barrel, go google what floating barrel is for. Floating on PB is needed cause barrel heats up and "if" there fixing pioint it bends. PCP barrels do not heat up to the level of serious expansion. Same goes about harmonics - harmonics are terrible on skinny PCP barrels, add shroud to it and POI wil keep moving.
Barrels are easy to replace amd there are good choices of thick barrels. Repacing barrel with good thick part and having barrel support fixes many of POI shifting issues and makes air rifle much strudier.
both are flimsy and finiky IMHO - squirrel guns priced in elefant range.
Main problem IMHO - skinny floating barrels - where manufacturers save big. Common, PCP rifle does not need floating barrel, go google what floating barrel is for. Floating on PB is needed cause barrel heats up and "if" there fixing pioint it bends. PCP barrels do not heat up to the level of serious expansion. Same goes about harmonics - harmonics are terrible on skinny PCP barrels, add shroud to it and POI wil keep moving.
Barrels are easy to replace amd there are good choices of thick barrels. Repacing barrel with good thick part and having barrel support fixes many of POI shifting issues and makes air rifle much strudier.
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I can't say I've noticed a poi shift except when I take them out of the stock or the minor differences at various fill pressures. Then again, I don't shoot at the long ranges some of you guys shoot at and I don't tinker with my guns that much. I'm a 50 yard guy. Plus, I tend to stick to one pellet once I find one I like.
I used to get constant poi shifts with my old scope and rings but they were poor quality. not noticed anything recently though.
Does anyone have a view on what is causing their poi shift specifically? What sort of things cause it and does anything prevent it? How do you distinguish between a poi shift vs a wind change, pellet variation, varying fill pressures, poor hold, poi shifts from cleaning the barrel etc?
If it is happening after a light tap, then I would assume that the scope rail is loose or there is something wrong with the scope but I can't imagine you all didn't check those things first. I wouldn't expect a slight knock to be bending the barrel. Even with the lighter barrels, we are still talking about solid steel...
I tried to bend a barrel that was shooting to the left once. I thought I could straighten it with my hands. Absolutely no chance.
I'm going to experiment at longer ranges to see if I have this problem too.
I used to get constant poi shifts with my old scope and rings but they were poor quality. not noticed anything recently though.
Does anyone have a view on what is causing their poi shift specifically? What sort of things cause it and does anything prevent it? How do you distinguish between a poi shift vs a wind change, pellet variation, varying fill pressures, poor hold, poi shifts from cleaning the barrel etc?
If it is happening after a light tap, then I would assume that the scope rail is loose or there is something wrong with the scope but I can't imagine you all didn't check those things first. I wouldn't expect a slight knock to be bending the barrel. Even with the lighter barrels, we are still talking about solid steel...
I tried to bend a barrel that was shooting to the left once. I thought I could straighten it with my hands. Absolutely no chance.
I'm going to experiment at longer ranges to see if I have this problem too.
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If I had a gun that sensitive, I'd get rid of it.
My HW100 has the barrel band removed, and it is not sensitive to bumps or POI change at all. I lean it on trees, and never had an issue.
My Webley Spectre (FX cyclone) has a free floated barrel and never an issue.
I had an Air Arms S500 and it would shift the POI if it got handled slightly less than carefully. Removing the barrel band fixed that too.
So I'm not a fan of barrel bands, provided the barrel is sturdy enough to hold itself straight. A gun that flimsy has no place in my safe.
My HW100 has the barrel band removed, and it is not sensitive to bumps or POI change at all. I lean it on trees, and never had an issue.
My Webley Spectre (FX cyclone) has a free floated barrel and never an issue.
I had an Air Arms S500 and it would shift the POI if it got handled slightly less than carefully. Removing the barrel band fixed that too.
So I'm not a fan of barrel bands, provided the barrel is sturdy enough to hold itself straight. A gun that flimsy has no place in my safe.
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