A High-Tech Brain - Daystate

Had the pleasure to shoot a .30 cal delta wolf this past week. One word “WOW” 

Had the sad viewing of a .177 Delta Wolf recently at a State FT Championship owned by one of this countries best FT shooters.

Never made it past sight in spraying pellets randomly off POA. Shroud taken off a tad better but the guns owner threw his hands up in disgust and never shot the match making his 13 hour+ each way drive for nothing.



Not the first instance in the FT community of hearing about these DW's not doing well and owners giving up on trying to tune them for the lower power levels needed to play FT.



They likely are Great guns at higher power levels and only time will tell if HONEST unedited reports of success or failures are made by those using them.

It’s like running a sub 12 impact. It’s not what it’s supposed to do. 


ive seen some wild accuracy at 50 100 with .177 DW shooting slugs but 40 FPE won’t fly in FT

Make no mistake these guns are not without teething issues even at high power. I'm a big Daystate fan (along with FX and several of the Eastern European manufacturers too) and the Airwolf MVT (The true predecessor of the DW) would be at or very close to the top of my list of all time greatest airguns. 

Mine (0.22 high power)is currently back with the distributor for warranty work. The electronics are doing okay, despite what seems like quirky beta level software at the moment. The chrony feedback loop is much less refined than the Airwolf 10 years ago though.

The real issue on mine is the barrel was at first incredibly projectile fussy only wanting to shoot 18gr jsb with any precision. Slugs, 16gr and 25gr jsb - forget it. Cleaned the barrel after all the projectile testing (patchworm and minimal ballistol only) and managed to get it set up in advanced mode to shoot them very well at 880-885 and was pretty happy. This despite my concern that the tunability of a gun like this was totally wasted with a barrel that would seemingly only shoot one projectile at one speed acceptably. 

Went back to the range two days later - first few shots through the same hole at 50m and then it suddenly, inexplicably went off the reservation. Shot 3inch 'groups' at best from then on. Some shots could be seen visibly spiraling, others seemed fairly stable but would hit miles from POA.

Velocities were perfectly consistent. No clipping - mod on or off made no difference. Nothing was loose that I could tell. Breech seal etc showed no signs of issue. Single loading vs mag also made no difference. Tried multiple velocities to no avail. 

Atmospheric conditions were perfect and my other 0.22 gun shooting 16gr jsb was one ragged holing consistently. Trying those 16gr pellets in the delta wolf, as well as 25gr, were as bad and worse than the 18gr respectively at multiple velocities as well. They too were much worse than previously.

(*edit* deleted what I said about thinking the barrel is a dud/out of spec as it's quite possible I am was wrong and don't want to misinform)

Anyway bottom line is I'm incredibly disappointed in the gun at the moment, especially after such a long wait for it and seeing the results guys like Richard Saunders got in 0.22. Hopefully it's an easily resolved thing and not some design flaw. Nothing quite like the feeling of being at the range with your stupidly expensive blunderbuss and getting comprehensively thrashed at 50m by two chaps shooting a 0.22 hatsan blitz and a 0.177 CZ200!

Anyway I'll update when and if this get sorted out, and will hopefully as impressed as Airgun Advisor seems to be!

Mine in .25 cal. was good enough to win the Oregon EFT event in May this year, and come in second in the EBR 100Y event. (100 FPE classes). Does it have a few glitches? Yes, but mine performed flawlessly in Oregon. I think the biggest issue is the first shot or two being lower in speed that its setpoint. This can be remedied in Advanced mode by using a low reg. pressure with shorter dwell and higher voltage. I'm sure Daystate is working hard to come up with a ROM Flash to remedy this. I know Bobby C recently flashed my BIOS with version 1.02 (or 1.2) can't remember and it made a difference in improved gun response. For the .25 caliber my gun needs the King Heavy and NOT the Mk2. It shoots the Mk2 about as good as my .25 Marauder, but it shoots the King Heavy as accurately as my .22 RW HP (Bleu)...

Had the sad viewing of a .177 Delta Wolf recently at a State FT Championship owned by one of this countries best FT shooters.

Never made it past sight in spraying pellets randomly off POA. Shroud taken off a tad better but the guns owner threw his hands up in disgust and never shot the match making his 13 hour+ each way drive for nothing.



Not the first instance in the FT community of hearing about these DW's not doing well and owners giving up on trying to tune them for the lower power levels needed to play FT.



They likely are Great guns at higher power levels and only time will tell if HONEST unedited reports of success or failures are made by those using them.

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I hear it was a 5 minute fix once he got home. Back to one ragged hole at 30. New guns new challenges, glad he figured it out. Wish it was at the match to save him some drive time...

Dave

It’s like running a sub 12 impact. It’s not what it’s supposed to do. 


ive seen some wild accuracy at 50 100 with .177 DW shooting slugs but 40 FPE won’t fly in FT

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that’s sensible and makes a lot of sense. UK sub 12 impact is very different. It took a lot of work to detune my crown MK2 to shoot 580fps and my slightly less expensively challenger is hands down far more consistently accurate. I knew that going into it though. 


As far as DW and all new electronics goes there will be a lot of software issues. Is it worth the trouble? Only DW owners can made that decision. 

I saw a .177/20fpe Delta Wolf shoot a perfect 40/40 silhouette score a month or two ago. Ram, turkey, pig, chicken, chicken at 40, 50, 60, 70 yards. 

Not many guns or guys have pulled off perfect scores in this fun game. 

You're correct that we are still learning intensely. There was nothing wrong with Bill's rifle except for the setup. We have found that running the shroud collar all the way against the frame is bad. It needs a small gap to allow the frame to expand without stressing the barrel. The 177 standard rifled barrel that Bill and I have is very, very good and they shoot fine at any power appropriate to the barrel. I've tested mine from 80 deg to 122 deg in just a few minutes with zero poi change. There have been other real problems but we're finding them and working with Daystate to get it fully perfected. They did an amazing job with the engineering on the hardware and the software and assembly are right there, now.

It can be a real HAMMER but I like it even more at the low powers.

Bob

You're correct that we are still learning intensely. There was nothing wrong with Bill's rifle except for the setup. We have found that running the shroud collar all the way against the frame is bad. It needs a small gap to allow the frame to expand without stressing the barrel. The 177 standard rifled barrel that Bill and I have is very, very good and they shoot fine at any power appropriate to the barrel. I've tested mine from 80 deg to 122 deg in just a few minutes with zero poi change. There have been other real problems but we're finding them and working with Daystate to get it fully perfected. They did an amazing job with the engineering on the hardware and the software and assembly are right there, now.

It can be a real HAMMER but I like it even more at the low powers.

Bob

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This is very interesting! 

I wonder if this isn't why mine went from being fairly pellet fussy but a good shooter, to virtually instantaneously becoming a spray gun with no definite barrel flaws, as I post above. I also rechecked with a friend regarding the rifling vs his HP Pulsar and it was almost definitely a case of desperately looking for issues - he slugged his and the pellets come out with identical markings and the same choke. So it seems in my dismay my eyes were seeing what they wanted to see there. The shroud looked butted up against the frame when I got it but it's possible there was a fine gap I didn't notice. After cleaning the barrel the night before everything went wrong I definitely reinstalled it all the way in, assuming the chrony plug needed that to maintain consistent connection. 

I wonder if it's primarily an issue of aluminium vs steel expansion/contraction or inconsistency of vibration with everything butted up firmly in the region of the plug? Probably a bit of both I guess 

I ran into that also with the shroud. Easiest way is to leave a small gap business card thickness between the shroud and frame. When it’s butt up tight against the frame the barrel can’t “free float” and won’t return to normal position when bumped or moved. Mine keeps zero pretty much all the time and I haven’t had to re-zero in months. 

CC has it right. The contacts are spring loaded and can tolerate a fair gap. I measured a 0.010" gap in mine at 85 degrees and put it in the sun for 20 minutes. At 112 degrees the gap measured 0.004 ". A business card is roughly 0.020" and should cover the different expansion rate of the barrel and frame. Aluminum has a much higher coefficient of expansion than steel and if the collar doesn't have enough gap, will cause a very high stress on the barrel. I'm sure this is known at the engineering level, but was not communicated to us through any channel.

(Edit) All that's really required is to remove the 2 grub screws on the shroud and slide it off the collar, then loosen the 2 grub screws on the collar, stick a business card between the collar and frame, and tighten the screws up. Pull the card out and put the shroud back in place w grub screws and you're set.

Hope this helps.

Bob

Yes, but its not the shroud, its the collar that is under the shroud that has the contacts and wiring which goes towards the end of the barrel where the chrony sensor is located. So remove the two set screws that hold the shroud on and pull off the shroud. Then loosen the two set screws that hold the collar in position and do what Bob @arzrover says above in his second paragraph. The contactors are spring loaded, just make sure they are aligned and are making good contact when you "set the gap". Easy way to see is make sure your gun is turned on, the red LED light on the chrony will be lit "on" when the contacts are properly aligned and making good contact.

Thanks guys.

I can't wait to see if this sorts everything out. It's kind of a pity it's back under warranty now but I didn't want to risk anything on a gun this pricey, this early. I'll chat with them tomorrow and get them to try it if they haven't already (I seriously doubt they have).

Cheers 

Also have them check for the 15x3 mm barrel o-ring that is in a groove directly above the regulator adjustment (I used a Viton 75/80 duro o-ring) . I do not think it is a common issue, but my gun was missing that o-ring that acts to cushion and to keep the barrel centered within the breech.

Thanks again!

I've organized for my dealer to pick up my gun to do all this myself over the weekend, as they've confirmed they haven't started doing anything on it yet. So I figure I'll give this a whirl and should it fix everything, I'm sorted. If not, I'll drop it back off on Monday and it'll have caused no harm or delays in any case.

Have a good feeling about this. The theory fits very well with the sudden extreme change in performance I saw, without anything changing apart from a barrel reinstall. Plus it is so often silly little things like this that have profound effect

I'll feedback later today!

So I've shifted the shroud forward a bit, using a card to get a reasonable gap without the chrony disconnecting.



Confirmed to be reading velocities perfectly and they remained very consistent.

I also went through the gun and ensured all the screws etc were snugged up properly. 

Unfortunately I found no difference whatsoever to before, even at 20m. I even swapped scopes to one of my delta strykers halfway through to be sure the Nexus I have on the wolf wasn't acting up.

Pictured below are several 5 shot, one 6 shot and one 'gave up at 3' shot groups with the delta at 20m. They're an inch plus. The blue ring is 30mm diameter, for reference.



This is fully supported on an accutac bipod and prs monopod. 18gr AA at 880fps. Below is approximately 15shots at the same distance with one of my other 0.22 shooters with 16gr AA and bipod only with no rear support. The group below it is another one from the delta, which initially looked promising but sure enough crushed my dreams





Something is very wrong here. Anyway back it goes!

I don't have the Delta but I have experienced this problem with RW Heritage .22 HP and it was the pellets. Same JSB .22 18.13 gr in low power mode, one in a 500 tin and the other in a 250 tin. It's all over the place at 25 yards with the pellets in the 500 tin while it's almost a single hole dead center with the pellets in the 250 tin. I almost sent it back to AoA until I found this weird behavior. Tried another 2 brand new tins in 500 and 250, the result is exactly the same - not sure who to blame here, JSB or DS. It might or might not apply to the Delta but it worth trying.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Not sure if I mentioned it above clearly, but I've tried a few of different batches of AA/JSB and H&N in various weights and at multiple velocities. All were pretty bad except for, initially at least, the 18gr AA and those only at a specific velocity of 880fps. All the pellets I used, apart from jsb monsters have been proven to shoot really well in several other guns, so they are definitely not totally junk, at least. 

The 18's have since started giving the above results, with the rest even worse than initially.

Even if root cause is the barrel taking issue with pellets in some way, a barrel that was THIS fussy could only be regarded a poor barrel 

Just for the record I hadn't done anything whatsoever to the gun apart from a light patchworm cleaning with the barrel on the gun when I got it, and with the barrel off following pellet testing after which I simply reinstalled. The rest is as in my previous post.