2A and AGs

If air guns are not protected under 2A then their is no legal protection for the ownership of them. If they are, then they can be regulated along with PBs and the definition of the amendment itself comes into play. If a weapon is not a PB but can be regulated under 2A all sorts of "arms" suddenly come into play. Where in the amendment is the nature of "arms" defined?
 
Comes down to City State level many already got restrictions on airguns you can own depends where u live. Whether you can own a LDC or what caliber or if you are required to register them like a real firearm etc send to your ffl what not what states cannot ship airguns to where you aren't even allowed to shoot airguns in your own back yard etc...


 


You did notice that these:

If air guns are not protected under 2A then their is no legal protection for the ownership of them. If they are, then they can be regulated along with PBs and the definition of the amendment itself comes into play. If a weapon is not a PB but can be regulated under 2A all sorts of "arms" suddenly come into play. Where in the amendment is the nature of "arms" defined?


were simple logical assertions followed by a question, did you not? 

That sort of suggests your opinion was being requested, but if you're looking for a fight, stick around someone will likely seek to entertain you. Although if you have no opinion, you will probably be uninteresting to any potential troll.
 


You did notice that these:

If air guns are not protected under 2A then their is no legal protection for the ownership of them. If they are, then they can be regulated along with PBs and the definition of the amendment itself comes into play. If a weapon is not a PB but can be regulated under 2A all sorts of "arms" suddenly come into play. Where in the amendment is the nature of "arms" defined?


were simple logical assertions followed by a question, did you not? 

That sort of suggests your opinion was being requested, but if you're looking for a fight, stick around someone will likely seek to entertain you. Although if you have no opinion, you will probably be uninteresting to any potential troll.

I ask you a simple question and you have no clue. That's why you posted it in the first place. Guns have to get restricted first and then usually airguns will be next as in Europe. 
 
Says who? 


You did notice that these:

If air guns are not protected under 2A then their is no legal protection for the ownership of them. If they are, then they can be regulated along with PBs and the definition of the amendment itself comes into play. If a weapon is not a PB but can be regulated under 2A all sorts of "arms" suddenly come into play. Where in the amendment is the nature of "arms" defined?


were simple logical assertions followed by a question, did you not? 

That sort of suggests your opinion was being requested, but if you're looking for a fight, stick around someone will likely seek to entertain you. Although if you have no opinion, you will probably be uninteresting to any potential troll.

I ask you a simple question and you have no clue. That's why you posted it in the first place. Guns have to get restricted first and then usually airguns will be next as in Europe.


Oh, I missed this reply. Probably good that I did. I'm feeling unusually charitable today..

If I understand the "simple question" (bolded and underlined) in the above quote, you are asking me who said this:




If air guns are not protected under 2A then their is no legal protection for the ownership of them. If they are, then they can be regulated along with PBs and the definition of the amendment itself comes into play. If a weapon is not a PB but can be regulated under 2A all sorts of "arms" suddenly come into play. Where in the amendment is the nature of "arms" defined?

I have enlarged, bolded and underlined the source of the comment for you so that "Who says" is more obvious ... I am sorry for being so obtuse ... I thought "who says" was obvious.

Maybe you meant to ask, "Why do you say that?" I shall endeavor to answer the question you did NOT ask because clearly the first question was self-explanatory and I obviously should have intuited your real question ...

I say that because historically the 2A has been interpreted to protect only firearms. There appears to be no 2A protection for slingshots for example. They are regulated and banned in many communities. For example in Virginia, last I checked, concealed carry of a slingshot was illegal PERIOD. There wasn't even any opportunity to license one and carry it, although maybe the state would consider it ok if you had a CCP for a firearm. 

That was the crux of the matter. If there is no 2A legal protection for the ownership of air arms then there is no restriction on banning them, as (I believe) has actually been done in some jurisdictions. So that covers the first sentence of the assertion(s) I made in the opening post. It asserts that your airguns can be banned for public safety reasons alone and you have no 2A recourse if the gubmit does that. That's pretty important and I figured it might be worthy of discussion.

The second sentence in the post asserts that any court setting precedent that air arms are protected under 2A brings the definition of "arms" in the Amendment into question and broadens the scope of the 2A enormously. That's probably a good thing. Actually it is very important from a legal perspective, I think.

The third sentence in that post asserts that (by the foregoing logic) anything defined as a weapon could be covered including but not limited to knives, slings, cannons, pitchforks and sharp sticks ... Frankly the more subtle inference of the third sentence is that clearly the courts will never open that can of worms and so "arms" will remain tied to a much narrower definition by the courts than was ever intended by the founders. Clearly the wording implies that air arms SHOULD be covered under the 2A, as should many other weapons which are not, bows and arrows among them.

The question is summed up in the last sentence of the original post, "Where in the amendment is the nature of "arms" defined?" That question was intended to get people to think about what the 2A intends. You see I assert that the 2A DOES protect airguns, knives, swords, and pointy sticks.

Now lets get to this part of your post:

I ask you a simple question and you have no clue. That's why you posted it in the first place. Guns have to get restricted first and then usually airguns will be next as in Europe.

Your first assertion was that you asked me a simple question. Simple for whom? You asked me "Says who?" about a post which was literally labeled with the name of the person who said it. Clearly it must be a trick question, right? Either the answer is, "Well I said it." or you aren't asking who said it and I am to intuit your real question.

Your second assertion is that I have no clue. I suppose there are tons of things I could say to you to prove I have "clue". I have a better idea, though. Consider the last QUESTION in the post I first made an INVITATION to YOU to EXPLAIN to me where the logic fails. Then after you explain where the logic fails I WILL HAVE CLUE. Cool how that works, eh?

I have trouble with the part of your post where you say, "That's why you posted it in the first place." I assume you are saying something like, "because you have no clue, you posted this in the first place." which assumption, if correct, is already answered in the paragraph immediately above. In other words, YOU can fix that by answering the question, right?

Now then you make a very dangerous and illogical assumption with your last sentence. You say, "Guns have to get restricted first and then usually airguns will be next as in Europe." Now, that statement right there, that's more than simply naive. That assumption is dangerously simple minded. Airguns are ALREADY regulated and banned in places where firearms are still protected (or can at the least be licensed and owned) CITATION You can not justify the assumption that airguns will not be banned in some places as part of the process of banning firearms. You can not justify the assumption that airguns will not be banned FIRST in some places or be restricted MORE than PBs in some places BECAUSE we make the foolish assumption they are not protected under the 2A. The truth is they are legally defined as firearms in some places already.

Being declared firearms IS a two edged sword for those places. For example (and I will leave this question to you) NJ and Rhode Island define airguns as firearms. That means a clever lawyer might make the argument in those states they should receive 2A protections. It could be a back door to more rights for PB owners and better protection for the rights of airgunners, right?

So, Mr. Lowe, I do hope this fully answers your question, "Says who?" and your ASSertion "You are clueless."


 
Currently air guns are considered "toy guns" in the eyes of the federal law. On local/state law they can be firearms, toy, or dangerous weapons. 




18 U.S.C. § 921.

(3) The term "firearm'' means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive



I dont think we are very far away from federal regulation on air powered guns shooting steel or lead ammo. I think airsoft and paintball are always going to be toys. 
 
We are in a golden era of mostly unregulated air gun products and use, little to no federal regulations a plethora of powerful options available and with luck this will continue as long as possible I understand that your original question is where do air guns fit in the 2A my response is this They don't! Thankfully at least not yet and that is exactly what makes our current time a golden era if you were to compare our current era to any in the history of PB them we are somewhere in the roaring 1920's a time when you could order a fully automatic tommy gun in the mail or buy a 1911 at the local hardware store today we can buy a simi or full auto air gun all types of silencers or mufflers most rifles come standard with them, pcp rifles and pistols that rival PB in power and beat them in terms of loudness and the technology is getting better every day. Yes it's true that not being protected by the 2A means that we don't have a guarantee of protection but it also means we are lost in the cracks of Bureocracy and we therefore are unsee unheard. and that is where it's best to stay I live in California a state with very harsh gun laws and also a state were a convicted felon can't own much of any weapon not even a black power revolver they only fire at speeds around 600 fps and take minutes to load but can easily and legally get and have a pcp that shoots faster more powerfully, quicker, and quieter than any black powder weapon and I'm happy to be living in this time, with few regulations and ever advancing technology this is truly a golden era of air guns. 
 

Heres the important part of that article.. 

Jones said the trooper, who responded alone, encountered Peyton Ham, 16, who he said had a gun and a knife. According to the superintendent, a witness said they saw Ham in the driveway of the home “in a shooting stance” and pointing a weapon at the trooper.

“The trooper fired at the male, wounding him,” Jones said. According to another witness, Ham then pulled out a knife and tried to get up.

“The trooper ordered him to drop the knife before he fired again,” Jones said, adding that the trooper reported the shooting and called for emergency personnel while other troopers gave first aid. Ham was taken to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced dead, Jones said.


That is what we call Suicide By Cop. 


Around here an officer shot a kid (17 I think) holding a fishing fillet knife and waving it at people in his school a few months ago. I don't expect fillet knife reform any time soon. Point is we cant expect regulation on anything you can hold that is dangerous and may get you killed... almost every tool in your garage will get you shot if you hold it out and threaten a cop with it
 
We are in a golden era of mostly unregulated air gun products and use, little to no federal regulations a plethora of powerful options available and with luck this will continue as long as possible I understand that your original question is where do air guns fit in the 2A my response is this They don't! Thankfully at least not yet and that is exactly what makes our current time a golden era if you were to compare our current era to any in the history of PB them we are somewhere in the roaring 1920's a time when you could order a fully automatic tommy gun in the mail or buy a 1911 at the local hardware store today we can buy a simi or full auto air gun all types of silencers or mufflers most rifles come standard with them, pcp rifles and pistols that rival PB in power and beat them in terms of loudness and the technology is getting better every day.

Yes and that is why I think we need the strength of numbers Airgunners who believe they can skirt the gun confiscation by keeping their heads down are wrong. We are where we are today because too many people have kept their heads down for too long.

Yes it's true that not being protected by the 2A means that we don't have a guarantee of protection but it also means we are lost in the cracks of Bureocracy and we therefore are unsee unheard. and that is where it's best to stay I live in California a state with very harsh gun laws and also a state were a convicted felon can't own much of any weapon not even a black power revolver they only fire at speeds around 600 fps and take minutes to load but can easily and legally get and have a pcp that shoots faster more powerfully, quicker, and quieter than any black powder weapon and I'm happy to be living in this time, with few regulations and ever advancing technology this is truly a golden era of air guns.

This is a good point. I believe you are correct and refraining from drawing too much attention to AGs is probably a good idea BUT one can still help. If the idea that "they will come for the guns before they come for the airguns" is correct (not saying it IS, only IF) then the best way to keep AGs safe is to get on the 2A bandwagon. You don't have to tell the world you are doing it so they won't regulate AGs. Helping our PB brethren keep their rights helps us keep ours (even if it is because of relative obscurity).

On the other hand if the argument is wrong that PBs will be regulated before AGs the same logic applies and helping the PB folks keep their 2A rights is desirable.

Everyone seems to forget, the Second Amendment is a RIGHT not a privilege. It is a RIGHT like free speech. Anyone believing AGs are safer than PBs from regulation utterly fails to understand the difference between having a Constitutional right to possess an object and not having that same right. As it stands, because of the current interpretation of 2A, and the willingness of some in the AG community to believe obscurity is better protection than an actual Amendment, we actually enjoy no legal protections what so ever other than that we are free to own property...

Fully automatic, silenced, nine millimeter AGs will be the default choice of a sick mind AS SOON AS that mind can not lay it's hands on a black rifle. There won't be any reasonable recourse.
 
In Canada, airguns that shoot over 495ft/sec are treated as firearms. As such, a PAL is required.....(Possession and Aquisition License) It is a 1-11/2 day firearm course with an exam and hands-on test. If it is a pistol shooting over 495 ft/sec then a Restricted PAL is required. (RPAL) and it is another course and exam. Fully automatic weapons are illegal! as are rifles with barrels that are under the minimum length required. All makes perfect sense to me and I have no issues about complying.
 
Forgot to add the most important aspect of the licensing process!! If you pass the tests, you send your application including 3 references to the RCMP (federal police) with your test results and they do a COMPREHENSIVE background check. They will call ex-spouses, references and will do a criminal background check. The process takes approx. 3 months.
 
Sounds like a Kingdom ...I want no part of, and definitely don't care to ever see. People tend to forget that little things add up to bigger things...then history repeats itself.

Seems a lot of people here in the US who've lived through that history or come from country with such restrictions (which lead them to the US in the first place) are forgetting their history. And I speak of this an immigrant myself, to be sure am not trying to point fingers.