.25 enough for humane body shots on squirrels?

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Something I noticed this summer..on CA ground squirrels

I previously used a .22 P-Rod at around 10FPE shooting 16gr JSB. Every single squirrel whether a head or heart/lung shot was DRT. No radical floppy stuff with the head shots either just PFFFT plop flop. None moved more than a couple inches.

i just switched to a Leshiy in .25 shooting 25.4 JSBs at around 29FPE. Regardless of shot location head or heart/lung there has not been a single DRT event. All shots hit vitals and were pass throughs. They all died but managed to move 5 to 30 feet prior to expiring. The head shots resulted in the classic flip flop and tail helicoptering.

My take on these observations is that the .22 expended most of it’s energy inside the squirrel versus the .25 leaving most of it’s energy in the backstop. 


Maybe an HP or PolyMag in .25 would have different results..IDK
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Strange. So much the opposite with me and my Prod. My head shots are DRT and my body shots result in a shocked looking squirrel, often one that can run far away and up a tree. I know they're hit because that sound is unlike any other. I'm getting that with both Crosman Premier HP and Barracuda Terminator. Barracuda Match in the head seem to do the job just fine. But so far among those three, nothing in the body works. Or at least works quickly, to provide a non-lingering, horrible death. It's enough to make me feel I have to either mod the Prod to get more power, or stick to head shots exclusively. I do want to kill the little buggers, but have no desire to torment them.
 
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.25 Hades does a number on them squirrels especially at lower speed: 600FPS with body shots with not many pass throughs. Placement is still important and it drops them hard if you are anywhere near the vitals but the target area is pretty big. I have messed up couple shots but the damage is so massive they literally just jump and freeze in place and present an easy follow up shot. I take body shot only if the head/neck shot is not possible.
 
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A double lung shot always results in a dead animal. I read a study that said a deer sized animal on average expires in 18 seconds when a double lung shot occurs with a firearm. The animal is essentially stunned from the energy dump then dies from asphyxiation. Similar thing happens when a deer is double lunged with an arrow but there is no energy transfer..just cutting. .My experience is that the arrow takes less than 18 seconds because there is a lot of hemorrhaging that causes the animal to pass out prior to it running out of air. How an animal reacts to a double lung pellet hit depends on the pellet design and how much energy is transferred.

 
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i have an AA410 in .22 get in the high 30's for FPE depending on pellet. i ill do body shots when need be, but squirrels are surprisingly tough, and have a very small heart. They do work if you do your part. Good aim, and i highly suggest a HP for body shots. I am a head shot guy when ever using my Airguns. but quick anaswer yes. a .25 body shot will do the trick.
 
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Here in the uk we are limited to 12fpe which means we shoot nearer 11fpe. thousands of squirrels , more rabbits and many more pigeons and rats are taken each year with airguns, Shot placement is far more important than power, even a low powered will pass through the slender body and small head of a squirrel, higher power is just wasted.





Bb
 
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"What caliber do you believe to be the starting point for a heart/lung shot that is not a slow, agonizing death?"

I don't.

I recall almost a half-century ago snap shooting a fleeing squirrel with a .45 ACP just before it disappeared over a rise, my buddies saying "You missed it." I replied, "I don't think so; the shot felt perfect." At that, the squirrel came rolling back down the rise in a writhing fit; center-punched lengthwise through the body.

I've been concentrating on brain shots for some decades, and now seldom take chest shots on anything... with anything. I'm a bit less particular with pests that need eliminating whenever/if the opportunity arises.

I'm not denigrating anyone here. I'm old enough to realize everyone has their own hunting ethics, and am not trying to preach mine. I just abhor seeing anything suffer moments of physical and mental trauma in its last moments. That's why I gave up bowhunting, despite the fact I loved everything else about it. 

Sumatra squirrel.1600222473.JPG


Seventy-five yards in very strong criosswinds, from benchrest with the scope dialed for that range. 

Nine squirrel.1600222606.JPG


Twenty-five yards with a 9mm round ball, 

42 yd AR6 2.1600222698.JPG


Forty-two yards from an improvised rest.

Airsoft rat.1600223330.JPG


Spittin' distance!
 
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I ALL WAYS harvest the squirrels around here with heart lung shots. DRT every time, no flip flopping etc.

Most taken with a .177 at 12 fpe too !!
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It's hard to know what to think, sometimes. I've seen full videos of people taking squirrels with body shots, even with .177, but on the other hand my marauder pistol has bounced pellets right off squirrels. I have a .25 coming today, as well as a .177, and am thinking I may be relegating my marauder pistol to plinking, the .177 to headshots, and the .25 for body shots. It's interesting to see that .177 does seem to work for some people. I think some of it must be the power of the gun plus the tune, as well as of course the pellet weight and expansion potential. It doesn't seem to be "point and shoot," so to speak.
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Have you ran pellets over a chrony with your prod? Something has to be wrong with it if you're bouncing pellets off squirrels. I could kill with head, and properly placed body shots with a 22 maximus euro and that should be about the same power level of a prod. Therw were no pellets bouncing off squirrels. Just a thought. 
 
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Gunner,1985, thank you for the feedback. I am not mechanically inclined and so not a tinkerer at all, so I was hoping to shoot out of the box except in case of obvious malfunctions. So a chrony was not at the top of my list. I'm so new that even scopes still befuddle me sometimes. After buying a rifle, scope, LRF, accessories, and even a PARD(not attached yet), I was hoping to take it easy for a while on the spending. But maybe that is not possible in this hobby? At least there are chronys that are relatively reasonably priced, if that's what I absolutely must have just to be able to shoot a little bit and get as-intended results.

FWIW, I usually shoot from 2200 to 2800 PSI on my Marauder pistol, so that seems well within the bounds of what I would expect a well-proven 3k PSI pistol to function well at. Though I could be wrong, of course. I see flyers from a bit beyond 2800 up to 3000, so I'm not going over 2800 now. Ideally I see my most consistent results at 2400 to 2800, which seems so narrow to me, but oh well. I'm talking Crosman Premier Hollowpoints, with H&N Barracudas grouping a bit better with fewer flyers, and H&N ... mmm. Hunter Extremes I think it was and Crosman Destroyers flying kinda wild sometimes, especially the latter.

The pellets bouncing have been the Crosman Premier HP's exclusively, if I remember correctly. It has happened on three squirrels so far, so it is getting frankly disturbing and I am not feeling good about myself about it. One a body shot, one a body shot twice with no puncture, and one a perfect shot at the back of the head between the ears that made him drop immediately, not a twitch ... but then after I saw him completely still, I went to attend to something and saw him gone. Next morning he was about 15 yards closer to the house, dead as a doornail with neither blood nor entry wound.

I definitely have to start doing something differently. Maybe the chrony would help and I should make it a top priority. Though I don't know if I would even know what to do with the info on the level you experienced guys do.
 
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"What caliber do you believe to be the starting point for a heart/lung shot that is not a slow, agonizing death?"

I don't.

I recall almost a half-century ago snap shooting a fleeing squirrel with a .45 ACP just before it disappeared over a rise, my buddies saying "You missed it." I replied, "I don't think so; the shot felt perfect." At that, the squirrel came rolling back down the rise in a writhing fit; center-punched lengthwise through the body.

I've been concentrating on brain shots for some decades, and now seldom take chest shots on anything... with anything. I'm a bit less particular with pests that need eliminating whenever/if the opportunity arises.

I'm not denigrating anyone here. I'm old enough to realize everyone has their own hunting ethics, and am not trying to preach mine. I just abhor seeing anything suffer moments of physical and mental trauma in its last moments. That's why I gave up bowhunting, despite the fact I loved everything else about it. 

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I am not trying to tell other people how to do things either and am equally wary that someone might misinterpret what I'm saying as a condemnation or judgment when I'm really just fishing for opinions and personal experiences so as to better inform my own personal choices. I appreciate everyone who contributes their viewpoints, and that very much includes you, AirNGasman.

In fact I'm softy enough to be weirdo by many people's measure, I'm sure. I grew up shooting guns, but at paper. I am still not totally comfortable with every aspect of hunting -- what you say about bow hunting rings a bell with me -- but like you feel considerably less ethical pressure when it comes to eliminating harmful pests. If anything, I think shooting them is infinitely kinder than poisoning them (and the fauna around them possibly) or catching them and then drowning them in their cages, or releasing them onto your neighbor's property, which strikes me as ethically insane.

That squirrel surviving a 45 lengthwise is bizarre and chilling. I've never thought of hunting as something as kind as hunters often portray it, but more along the lines of probably less grotesque than an animal being factory farmed. Still far from merciful. I'd like to reach merciful if I can get there, even for pests. Just like with the way we treat prisoners -- the relative level of kindness with which we do so is not necessarily for them, or for any love for them or acceptance of them. At the very least, we have to consider what our level of kindness toward the world does to and for ourselves. And even if that's a purely selfish consideration, I'm still okay with that. I don't want to become a monster nor live in a society of monsters. Besides, what's pure anyway? If I try to be kind for less than saintly motives, if only to put my own heart in order, that's okay too. I want to do what I can, and appreciate your feedback.

Sorry for the long rant. Perhaps bizarrely enough, I feel like a piece of crap even for causing the suffering of a squirrel.
 
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A chrony is extremely helpful for a lot of airgun repairs, tuning etc...but, for your purposes you could grab something hard like a piece if 1/2 plywood (better suggestions for medium?) and test penetration and accuracy at the given distance your pesting. If you have good penetration keep to that distance. 



Maybe better, see if another airgunner in your area with a chrony and more experience is willing to meet up with you and help trouble shoot. 
 
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https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957537895.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.4fa44c4dVYMGYd



This $20 chrony works great and will help you find out what's up with your rig. I'm new to the sport/hobby myself and jumped in with both feet in June of this year. While I'm just beginning to tinker with my stormrider, the chrony has been an invaluable tool so far. From base-lining to helping me figure out where my air was going after my first disassembly of the rifle, chrony lets me know if I made progress or two steps back. I'd never had known I'd knicked the barrel orings on reinstallation and was down 75fps without this cheap invaluable tool.


 
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Hi I’ve been following this thread with interest and I’d like to share my thoughts and observations. I live in and urban situation there are many black walnut trees so needless to say I have an abundance of squirrels. I’ve only been living in my place for a year and I initially thought they were cute until they started tearing up my place to get in the attic. I didn’t have any luck with trapping so I bought Puncher Breaker in .22 to try and reduce the numbers.

I’m using Hades pellets and I have shot around 60 of them in the past 5 months and most of the shots are in the 20 to 35 yard range. My experience is that the Hades pass through most of the time and the exit wound is small. Being in an urbane situation I have to be mindful of the backstop and when I do shoot a squirrel the pellet buries itself into the tree so I am concluding that there isn’t much energy transfer to the body of the squirrel. I don’t have a hide/bench rest so generally I’m not in a situation where I can hold for a head shot. For the times I do the squirrel goes down with its usual helicopter dance. The remainder of my shooting is heart / lung and my results are variable. About 60 ~ 70% of the time they are DRT with hardly going anywhere. The remainder will make it up a tree or into the undergrowth and I rarely find them. On occasions I do find them the next day and the shot placement seems to be correct but they didn’t fall over dead on the spot.

I’d have to say that for the 30 ~ 40% that are runners I feel really badly, so much so that I’m reconsidering my whole approach. As to the question of the effectiveness of .25 for body shots I suspect that the results will be similar due to the lack of energy transfer to the squirrel.


 
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The avenger is pretty darn easy to tune down, regulator and hammer spring both very accessible. Try hades at 600 FPS, it looks like they got hit by a billiard ball! You will be shocked on the devastation caused by the hades at such low speed/power. Must see to believe! Also at 600 FPS there is a good change you won’t get a pass through. No a single squirrel no matter where I shot them made more a foot or two away. 


I switched from 25 to 177 for plinking and pesting because I ran out of squirrel for the time being and want the challenge of 177.......I do have .22 and .25 ready as backup though. 
 
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I've got some .25 Hades locked up with Pyramid with some back-orders, but I look forward to trying them. I'll probably try slugs eventually.

Today I got some pellets in from Trenier, which are so far my only 25's.

1 x H&N Field Target Trophy .25 Cal., 20.06 Grains
1 x H&N Hunter .25 Cal., 27.47 Grains
1 x H&N Hunter Extreme .25 Cal., 28.24 Grains
2 x JSB Match Exact King .25 Cal., 25.4 Grains
1 x JSB Match Heavy King .25 Cal., 33.95 Grains

also for .177:

2 x H&N Hunter Extreme, .177 Cal., 9.57 Grains
1 x JSB Exact Monster .177 Cal. 13.43 Grains
1 x JSB Hades .177 Cal., 10.34 Grains

I got the Avengers late yesterday but have been too busy today to start settling in with the gun yet. I swung the .177 around, shouldered it, etc., to get the feel of it. I gotta say I like how it fits my long arms. Very good cheek weld for me, either side. And the stock doesn't feel cheap to me, like it's going to start chipping or cracking right away. No creaking or movement. I've never used a side lever before and I'm loving it. Anyway tomorrow I think I should have some time to check it out and fire off some rounds. I'm really looking forward to learning more about these calibers and seeing if I can find the perfect purposes for both.
 
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With reference to humane kills and archery, I asked a surgeon about that. According to him, the fast moving razor sharp braodhead cuts the nerves so smoothly and quickly that the "pain signal" doesn't get sent to the brain. 

I can relate to that. I have cut myself with wood carving chisels and didn't realize that I had done so until I noticed the blood. 

When I still hunted deer I used a very quiet setup - a home made 50 pound ironwood longbow and fairly heavy arrows. Over the years, I had many deer just stand there looking around or walk off a couple of steps and bed down before expiring (usually within 10 - 15 seconds) from a complete pass-through double lung hit. As long as I didn't spook them badly they rarely went far.
 
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I've got some .25 Hades locked up with Pyramid with some back-orders, but I look forward to trying them. I'll probably try slugs eventually.

Today I got some pellets in from Trenier, which are so far my only 25's.

1 x H&N Field Target Trophy .25 Cal., 20.06 Grains
1 x H&N Hunter .25 Cal., 27.47 Grains
1 x H&N Hunter Extreme .25 Cal., 28.24 Grains
2 x JSB Match Exact King .25 Cal., 25.4 Grains
1 x JSB Match Heavy King .25 Cal., 33.95 Grains

also for .177:

2 x H&N Hunter Extreme, .177 Cal., 9.57 Grains
1 x JSB Exact Monster .177 Cal. 13.43 Grains
1 x JSB Hades .177 Cal., 10.34 Grains

I got the Avengers late yesterday but have been too busy today to start settling in with the gun yet. I swung the .177 around, shouldered it, etc., to get the feel of it. I gotta say I like how it fits my long arms. Very good cheek weld for me, either side. And the stock doesn't feel cheap to me, like it's going to start chipping or cracking right away. No creaking or movement. I've never used a side lever before and I'm loving it. Anyway tomorrow I think I should have some time to check it out and fire off some rounds. I'm really looking forward to learning more about these calibers and seeing if I can find the perfect purposes for both.
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on squirrels try 600-650 FPS with any 25 pellets and it would hit harder than faster pellet speed. When the pellets are going 900 FPS they usually zips right through, at lower speed there is much better energy dump. Hades happens to be exceptionally effective at lower speed. 
 
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