.22 over 80ft and .25 over 95 ft lb. How?

Lol dont even try... Same ppl think Matt invented slugs etc... Hype is real lol.

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Yup, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Just like Newbys tend to forget that the videos are only showing the hits, not the misses, or the "ranging" shots taken prior to the hit... Those of us that have been out hunting at longer ranges know it honestly doesn't happen in real life the way its depicted in the videos. Doesn't mean they're not fun to watch, but just like most movies, there is more than a touch of fiction thrown into them...

Those airgunners in the African continent needed that power because they have to deal with longer range and given conditions of the hunt and 22 cal are all they are allowed. 

How do you hit something 150 -200 yards away with that pellet gun

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No one "needs" to hit something with an airgun 150-200yds away when it comes to pesting. I call BS there. It's something cool to try if that's what you want to do but absolutely not a necessity. That's all publicity for YouTube with those extremely long shots on pests.

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How did my observation from those videos become BS?

how and why do you guys keep dropping 22rf into an airgun thread? The OP did not ask for opinions on 22 RF. go make your own threads. 

the phrase "no one" is an opinion, who are you to say "no one" when you know hunting applies differently to each person based on regulations, and location? i dont know about your definition of "pesting". to me, "pesting" are for tiny small games around your backyard or close range. these people shoot games on rocky hills 80-150 yards away, I would not want a rainbow trajectory on pellets. Thus why they need power for flatter trajectory and slugs. This is my observation on the needs. feel welcome to call that BS.

I bet it would take less shots with slugs and higher power compared to pellets. 

Lol dont even try... Same ppl think Matt invented slugs etc... Hype is real lol.

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Yup, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Just like Newbys tend to forget that the videos are only showing the hits, not the misses, or the "ranging" shots taken prior to the hit... Those of us that have been out hunting at longer ranges know it honestly doesn't happen in real life the way its depicted in the videos. Doesn't mean they're not fun to watch, but just like most movies, there is more than a touch of fiction thrown into them...

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Yeah thats the whole problem with this industry. Too many ppl not knowing and too many youtubers showing alot of questionable content. Some reason many ppl think they can take that 200yd shot with an airgun but at sametime they would not take it with RF. Even if you would have 0.15bc at 1100fps out from airgun/RF or bloody blowpipe we all are still limited by laws of physiqs and 100yd and beyond is bloody long distance for light, slow moving projectile no matter is it diabolo or bullet shape. My custom airgun gets maxrange value 2000+yds yet I would never say its accurate out to 200yds lol. Not to even mention how much of a drop you start to get / 1yd traveled and we are talking about 0.2052bc value where as most 22cal slugs have bc value of under 0.1. Would be nice that they would show importancy of accurate ranging atleast but I suppose stuff like that dosent sell. 

the phrase "no one" is an opinion, who are you to say "no one" when you know hunting applies differently to each person based on regulations, and location? i dont know about your definition of "pesting". to me, "pesting" are for tiny small games around your backyard or close range. these people shoot games on rocky hills 80-150 yards away, I would not want a rainbow trajectory on pellets. Thus why they need power for flatter trajectory and slugs. This is my observation on the needs. feel welcome to call that BS.

I bet it would take less shots with slugs and higher power compared to pellets.

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My pesting is long ranges on small targets as well. Sparrows, starlings and doves and also sage rats with most shots between 50-100yds with pellets at 870fps on our dairy and in our fields. So yeah I have long range experience with pellets. Anyways the benefits of what was being talked about with a roughly 60fpe .22 vs them now pushing 80fpe in .22 is very very little. Especially the flatter trajectory. Here's 2 comparisons on Chairgun using info on Patriot slugs specifically there 34gr slugs and 26gr slugs. BC for both were pulled from there website. Both shooting at 1000fps with a 40yd zero shooting at 150yds. The difference between them is minimal at 1.4 MOA. I'd bet there guns don't shoot consistently under 1.5 MOA at 150yds to show that difference. Also just doing a 20fps difference between shots shows a difference in height of around .7 MOA. So yeah I do call BS on it being a "need" instead of a want. 

And sure maybe it'll take less shots to hit your target at that range with slugs, but when I'm pesting I'm not messing around taking hail Mary shots I only take shots that I'm confident I can make. And I also believe in using the right tool for the job. Hence why others have mentioned RF over a slug shooting pellet gun. Cause many others also know the work it take to get there. If you want to check out an amazing slug shooting gun check out Mike from Thomas airguns in his slug shooting rig in the benchrest forum. And you'll see from him just how hard it is to get an airgun to compete with a good rimfire.

Dairyboy. I think you got you numbers above a bit mixed up. you basically only showed the difference of the pellet 26 gr versus 34gr. you need to change to G1 profile for slugs. then you see a bigger difference if you did say the 34 jsb pellet to the 34 gr patriot. remembering to use the GA profile for pellets and G1 for the slugs.

Here's for the G1 drag law. Both are Patriot slugs but showing the difference between a 57fpe and 75fpe tune in .22. Shows a 1.3MOA difference now.

Dairyboy, Since you have so much long range experience. tell me if you would rather shoot slugs or pellets at 150 yards? Even at 100 yards, you cannot tell me your pellets will not be affected by the variables. dented skirt? gusting wind at 100 but calm at 50 yards...etc...

all that data dont mean poop when you think the wind will stay constant at 5mph at that range. or are you telling me that you can hit sub moa all day with pellets compared to slugs solely based on that data? is that data for reference or that data like a solid rule nothing can change or affect it? 

And Now you are explaining to me that you only take shots that you can be certain you can make it. doesn't that mean hunting is applied differently to each person? you just confirmed that you only take the shot with pellets being the limiting factor, while others with slugs can make that shot more often. That's the whole point that I am arguing about, maybe I am speaking to a mule that won't listen. bucks wind better, flatter trajectory...needs power to make that happen with slugs or heavy pellets or whatever the case maybe. 

I am shooting 100 yard with 36.5 grains slugs at 970fps and it still a rainbow. I am sure 34.39 grain pellets at 870fps will be more of a rainbow then 36.5gr at 970fps. and on a windy day, I dont give a dam what that data says, the pellet will get pushed left to right, up and down for that 100 yards and your point of impact will be wildly different than that of the calculator. While it will have less of an affect on the slugs...tell me you disagree with that! thus why we go back and forth about using slugs or pellets at that power level. 

Power is a want for you but may be in fact a need for someone else and that's a fact! that brings back to the "NO ONE" phrase is an opinion. I call that phrase BS because you cannot group everyone into your set in stone opinion that you don't need power. It's a need for someone that needs the slugs to outperform the pellets. it's stupid that you said "NO ONE". 

Yeah, right tool for the right job. you would pick up a rimfire for 150 yards. why? because it has more power and bucks the wind better. we are going back to the same point here...power and trajectory. Only that someone wants it done with airguns... 

I'd like you to look through my points and see where I compared pellets and slugs?? My point being about slug vs slugs. All being equal being velocity and setup everything the difference between a 57fpe slug shooter and 75fpe slug shooter is very small when it comes to trajectory. Never did I say 57fpe pellet shooter vs a 75fpe slug shooter.

Again where did I say pellets are better than slugs?? Never. In windy conditions slugs will out perform pellets. Longer ranges slugs out perform pellets. If there a good match for the barrel of course. Your not getting what I'm saying obviously. 

And to the Chairgun setting all I changed were velocity, weight, BC and then G1. Never did anything with wind. Never said anything about wind. You stated they needed more power for the flatter trajectory. All I'm saying is trajectory wise between a 57fpe slug tune with 26gr slugs vs a 75fpe slug tune with 34gr slugs is so minimal. Others stated once over a certain point like 55-60fpe in .22 with slugs there's no real gain and negatives outweigh benefits. I showed the trajectory difference and windage is very minimal. The boys in Africa have been shooting 55-60fpe with slugs for along time now. This thread is about much higher power like 80fpe in .22. They recently started doin it and really to say it's much better trajectory is false. 

And clearly someone got there feelings hurt to have to attack me personally calling me stubborn like a mule and that me saying "no one" is stupid. Shows me alot about your personality that someone with a different opinion you get personal. Lol takes 2 stubborn people my friend to get in an argument.

I totally agree with @dairyboy No significant difference between 55 and 80 fpe as far as trajectory. One thing I know he understands, but didn’t mention is wind drift versus speed. If you shoot the same slug, one at 950 FPS and the other at the “new gotta have it speed” of 1050 FPS, you’ll see that the slower one drifts less in the same wind... blows your mind doesn’t it?

getting hurt over an argument is hardly my style. I am just saying it is stupid to assume and decide "no one" needs power. I am not trying to attack you, sorry if it sounded like that? But it's outrageous when you group everyone into a category like a dictator as if you say 2+2=5 and everyone is wrong but you are right? 

I am just trying to stand out from your "NO ONE" needs phrase and exercise my right to voice my opinion? and since we have two different points to drive, it's hard to avoid since "WE" (me too) are both stubborn mules and wont yield unless one is proven right or wrong? "stubborn mule" is hardly an insult or attack, unless you just take every little comments negatively like that. 

You did say you shoot pellets at 870fps-ish and there is no need for more power? That's why i assume you don't even need slugs for those 150 yard ranges?

When you compare 2 different slug weights. It's called apples to oranges. I am talking about FPE, 60 fpe vs 80 fpe, you have to use the same parameters as in same weight...We are focusing on power and trajectory with the only different factor of FPE? 

If you want to compare different slug weights, then I have no idea why we are arguing, I thought I made it clear it's about power...

I would like to bet $25 for the 80fpe needing less holdover because it has flatter trajectory and more power vs the same weight at 60fpe....No need to argue or trying to figure out personalities. put the money where the mouth is and prove me wrong with real world testing. upsize the bet if you feel I am being cheap

Dude your getting way too worked up over this. Your talking about trajectory for the boys in Africa and theyve been shooting slugs at or around 1000fps for awhile. They get more power they then bump up slug weight. So not apples to oranges it's what they do. If you want trajectory like they want your not shooting a heavier slug slower. Your gonna push the heaviest slug your gun can to that limit. Then bumping up to 80fpe you change the slug to match that power. Theyre working on a 40gr slug but not sure there gonna release it as very few guns can get the power to actually be "beneficial" to use the 40gr over the 34gr due to not getting it around 1000fps. I've been staying the same thing the entire time.

No need to bet money as it's common sense that you shoot a slower slug faster a whole 20fpe worth of power more, it will have a flatter trajectory. However again that big of a jump in power you are going to have to jump up in weight of projectile especially if you were shooting for trajectory in the first place. Even using a 30gr slug at 950fps which still isn't there 1000fps goal, to get to 80fpe is now 1100fps. Doubt accuracy will be there at that speed and now wind drift is worse than it was at 950fps. In a 15mph wind it's 2.6" at 150yds. And also speed wise you start out with 150fps difference but by the time your at 150yds your just under 75fps difference. Starting with a FPE difference of 20.5fpe you at 150yds it's now only 7.4fpe. But man flatter trajectory you know. But with the negatives of 1100fps on accuracy usually probably need to bump up the weight to use the power gain potential to the fullest.



Here's with the 34gr slugs. As you can see the 34gr slugs at 1030fps has more of a rainbow trajectory than the 30gr at 1100fps. So if I want less rainbow why not shoot the 30gr at 1100fps. Well there's the 3.2" difference in windage at 150yds which is more than the difference in trajectory which is only around 2". Guess which is harder to predict? Trajectory or wind? Yeah not trajectory. Having a flatter trajectory only does so much when you have wind messing up the shots which is ever changing. Even the difference at 1100fps with the 30gr (80fpe) vs 895fps with the 34gr (60fpe). About 10" with the trajectory with the edge going to the 30gr but 4.7" in wind with the edge going to the 34gr. Again flatter trajectory but much worse in wind. And only 4.5fpe difference with a 20.1fpe difference at the muzzle.



But if you want flattest trajectory which is what we're after here right? The 26gr at the 60fpe power mark would have the edge.



All this going to show that if your going for flattest trajectory you aren't going to be shooting a heavy slug slow and more than likely shooting a lighter slug faster. Then going to an 80fpe gun you will need to bump up the slug weight not keep it the same to be useable.

Yep you are spot on. Thats why I use 50+gr slugs at 1000+fps with 0.168-0.2052BC. I could ofc bump it up to 60grainers and so on but velocity would drop to under 950fps and BC benefits would be close to none. What comes to 5.7mm 41gr RWS 22lr bullets at 1100fps with 0.12-0.13 BC wouldnt make sense it would lose in performance even at 100yds and yes drift alot more. There is alot of weird things happening and alot of tradeoffs you have to choose to get airgun shooting "hot" and in many ways 22lr is just alot simpler solution than trying to copy its ballistics with air. Also to be noted my rig is permanently changed so I wont never be using pellets out from it and sometimes I wish I would own even one low to mid power pelletpusher they are just generally alot more risk free when it comes to what is happening behind your target. 

Good points @dairyboy I've been posting for years about the "power fetish" and how going much over 950 FPS has little benefit in drop, and actual detriment in wind drift, as you've shown above. And once you get much past 80 FPE (with an Impact), the gun becomes much harder to shoot accurately. I shoot my .25 Impact with NSA 43.5 grain at 885 to 890 FPS. Blasphemous! I'm not even getting to 950, let alone 1050. But like @dairyboy said above, which is easier to judge, drop or drift? If you hunt much over 100 yards, you know the answer to that one... I could post shot charts and Strelok numbers that show this, but its already been done and we still have many non-believers. Think about it, there are still people that believe the Earth is flat... When I tell people that my slug at 890 drifts less than theirs at 1050 they always look at me like I should be riding the short bus. Its EASY to get yardage within a yard even at 200 yard range. And that gives me +/- and inch even at over 150 yards. I'll gladly trade that for windage which I have to GUESS and I have an inch or two (or more) advantage over the faster slug.

To compare .22 cal vs .25 cal makes no sense. to compare different weights in the same caliber at different fpe levels doesn't apply to me. 

The reason being, The superior heavy slug liner in my .25 cal doesn't like anything 36.5grains and below. It will zig zag at 970fps. While the 38.5grains doesn't. So it becomes a need for me to push the 38.5grains between 950-1050fps. And I did shoot them at both different speeds, 970fps for 80fpe vs 1050fps for 94fpe. I don't see any accuracy differences, maybe it will show at longer than 100 yards? But it is for sure flatter with the 94fpe vs 80fpe. If I shoot the 38.5grains at 890fps like Centercut, I would run out of holdover mildots. Dont wanna do that with small targets. 

So do you know why me and anyone that runs a suprier heavy slug liner may actually NEED to shoot it hotter and faster for accuracy? remember, I CANNOT shoot anything lower than 38.5 grains for the reasons below. and this is at 50 yards...It aint going to hit anything at 100yards for sure. 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSV04ap8l5w

Dark, I don’t want to sound like a smart ass, but 50 yards? I know @stoti shoots the 34.9 NSA at 944 FPS and they are way inside MOA at 100 yards. We both shoot the Slug A liner. I normally don’t shoot slugs at less than 100 yards, those distances are for pellets. Even shooting “slow” with the 43.5 NSA at 890 FPS I don’t run out of clicks until about 250 yards. Far enough for me... At 77 FPE the gun is easy to shoot, gets fairly good efficiency, and is inside MOA at 100 yards. Like this. Five shots 102 yards. Different day. Top group about 0.4 inch and bottom group about 0.6 inch. 

No, that didn't come across as "smart ass" at all. You can be all you want to be, I don't mind. it's just hardass men talking, I dont take offense that easily.

May be you misunderstood. I dont shoot slugs 50 yards, i go out to 100 yards as I have been discussing with you all. the video is just to show the zig zag pattern at 50 yards clearly, and I do see it at 100 yards too, just not on video. And the Slug A liner twists are different then the Superior Heavy slug liner. The word "heavy" does mean something here. 

I am just showing how the lighter weights will not work for my case thus I need the power for heavier slugs to move faster. 

I am not opposed to shooting heavy slugs slow, as long as I can bare with the rainbow. Yeah you can be on lower power magnification and that will be alright i guess. or cant the scope....all workarounds...and I don't "click" or dial, I holdover. 

Both my .22 700mm Impact shooting JSB KOs 25 gr slugs and my 600mm with H&N 27gr slugs, after testing both gun/slug combinations exhaustively at speeds from 1000fps down, have surprised me in that both are most accurate at 885fps. They both run re-crowned, polished and carbon sleeved superior heavy liners. What a pleasure to shoot the guns at these speeds. At a 100m I used to dial 2.5 to 2,7 mils. Now it’s at 3.4. Again surprised that it’s only an 8 click difference. 

These are 3-shot groups that are the norm in calm conditions at 50m. Translates to sub MOA at 100m in calm conditions. I’m now a believer in slower, more efficient and more accurate. And I’m seeing that the guns are also more consistent in delivering this kind of accuracy with slugs at these speeds.





The photo below shows two 3-shot groups the difference being that I focused on holding the rifle more consistently with the smaller group. It happens to be the best groups I have shot so far. It is far less hold sensitive at these milder velocities. The larger group is still accurate. All 4 groups were shot consecutively and my friend witnessed them Having a tensioned carbon outer that replaces the shroud, has contributed to the accuracy I’m now finally achieving with my guns. 

I love this theread. I've seen it al before. One of the advantages of being old. and haveing worked and sold quite a bit of shooting insturments. From Bow's to airguns, to firearms. 



If power is not important why did we go from long bows to recurves?, Why Recurves to compound bows? Why black powder to smokeless? Why low pressure rounds to todeays high pressure?

Why bb guns to jpellet guns. Why pellet guns to todays slug shooters. The march goes on. Always has. 

Why, mostly for the chanllenge first and formost. Why on earthwoudl a person hunt with a primitive long bow when amodern firearm isj avaliable? The challenge. It is it's own reward. 

Why do I shoot a slug gun, and have been from well before anyone Heard of Matt. D. Long before.

Due to my Wifes illness, I was forced to close my very successful custom knife business. I am not allowed to make an income what so ever due to the arrangement in her medical bills. I cannot afford something as common as pellets. Hence, I cast my own bullets. I use mostly only firearm barrels as that is what fire arm barrels are made to shoot.

I cannot afford the 200 buck stamp + another 4-- to 500 bucks for a fire arm suppressor. Air gun ldc's are easy to come by and much less expensive here in the U.S..

I can tune a gun to give exactly what I want it to do. I can hunt with my .257 200 fpe Talon/Dor at any range grater than any rimfire. Much less a LR. 84 grs of high BC is hard to argue with .My .250's are all over 100 fpe capable and do a much nastier job with my custom slugs than any rimfire, and I don't disturb the neighbors. Show me a LR round that will expand to well over .50 cal.

And this is why I enjoy it, No It is not. It is that I can shoot 300 to 500 rounds a day, on my own range, cheaply and test so many variables from tune to projectiles. I have become completely bored with LR pb's. Pick one up, shoot, put it away. BOORING!!!

I am stuck at home all day, ever day. This gives me something to do. It is a tremendous challenge and it keeps me from going insane. I enjoy it greatly. I watch the hero's of Y.T beating their heads against the wall while completely ignoring what has been learned long ago in ballistics. Yet they are being toted as the masters of slug shooting. Not eve close! the knowledge is there for anyone to learn, yet they either are ignorant of it, are too lazy or arrogant to look at what has been proven time and time again in shooting. It matters not at all whether it is powered by air or powder. External is a well understood science. 

One very famous youtuber and his friends who make slugs in S.A. just discovered that blunt nose bullets have an advantage in under ss speed. Elmer Keith the dean of modern handguns and designer of the .357, 44 mag and 41 mag proved that many years ago. Once again, the science and history is out there. It is easy to find.

I will put a few pic's of my current slug designs up in this post. Sadly, my best designs were lost when my old computer died. LOL! I no longer have the cal. of guns so I no longer have those molds. 

KnifeOne shot to settle the reg, 10 more in the same hole. 80 yards. (All I have n my personal range)(Varmint version) (two left colums)How it is make before being put into the nose closing die. Ultra explosive! On the level of a tnt .17 hmr with in 150 yards. 

Varmint vs. game slug. .22 to over .50 cal. Expansion. I know of no LR with this type of versatility. (80 yards, 1 gal water jug). Rear view of same slugs.  That's 60 shots in the crossing wind. Consistent? I think so. :<) I am working on this one at the moment. Playing with sizing for the Uragan, it is now this accurate at 80 yard with boring regularity. Just had to find a size of the durned choke! Love the Cz barrel. It came polished form the factory. One chore I didn't have too do for a change. LOL

None of these even come close to the .257 Talon/Dor for accuracy or destruction. Sadly, all of the .257 pics are lost. GRRRRRR!!!!!

I love this theread. I've seen it al before. One of the advantages of being old. and haveing worked and sold quite a bit of shooting insturments. From Bow's to airguns, to firearms. 



If power is not important why did we go from long bows to recurves?, Why Recurves to compound bows? Why black powder to smokeless? Why low pressure rounds to todeays high pressure?

Why bb guns to jpellet guns. Why pellet guns to todays slug shooters. The march goes on. Always has. 

Why, mostly for the chanllenge first and formost. Why on earthwoudl a person hunt with a primitive long bow when amodern firearm isj avaliable? The challenge. It is it's own reward. 

Why do I shoot a slug gun, and have been from well before anyone Heard of Matt. D. Long before.

Due to my Wifes illness, I was forced to close my very successful custom knife business. I am not allowed to make an income what so ever due to the arrangement in her medical bills. I cannot afford something as common as pellets. Hence, I cast my own bullets. I use mostly only firearm barrels as that is what fire arm barrels are made to shoot.

I cannot afford the 200 buck stamp + another 4-- to 500 bucks for a fire arm suppressor. Air gun ldc's are easy to come by and much less expensive here in the U.S..

I can tune a gun to give exactly what I want it to do. I can hunt with my .257 200 fpe Talon/Dor at any range grater than any rimfire. Much less a LR. 84 grs of high BC is hard to argue with .My .250's are all over 100 fpe capable and do a much nastier job with my custom slugs than any rimfire, and I don't disturb the neighbors. Show me a LR round that will expand to well over .50 cal.

And this is why I enjoy it, No It is not. It is that I can shoot 300 to 500 rounds a day, on my own range, cheaply and test so many variables from tune to projectiles. I have become completely bored with LR pb's. Pick one up, shoot, put it away. BOORING!!!

I am stuck at home all day, ever day. This gives me something to do. It is a tremendous challenge and it keeps me from going insane. I enjoy it greatly. I watch the hero's of Y.T beating their heads against the wall while completely ignoring what has been learned long ago in ballistics. Yet they are being toted as the masters of slug shooting. Not eve close! the knowledge is there for anyone to learn, yet they either are ignorant of it, are too lazy or arrogant to look at what has been proven time and time again in shooting. It matters not at all whether it is powered by air or powder. External is a well understood science. 

One very famous youtuber and his friends who make slugs in S.A. just discovered that blunt nose bullets have an advantage in under ss speed. Elmer Keith the dean of modern handguns and designer of the .357, 44 mag and 41 mag proved that many years ago. Hand Gunners have known this seemingly forever. Once again, the science and history is out there. It is easy to find. Our guns are far more akin to hand gun ballistics than any rifle round. Something that is missed here entirely. Understandably, but important non the less. . 

I will put a few pic's of my current slug designs up in this post. Sadly, my best designs were lost when my old computer died. LOL! I no longer have the cal. of guns so I no longer have those molds. 

KnifeThis mold is not a 4 ganger. I hate slow casting. LOLOne shot to settle the reg, 10 more in the same hole. 80 yards. (All I have n my personal range)(Varmint version) (two left colums)How it is make before being put into the nose closing die. Ultra explosive! On the level of a tnt .17 hmr with in 150 yards. 

Varmint vs. game slug. .22 to over .50 cal. Expansion. I know of no LR with this type of versatility. Rear view of same slugs.  That's 60 shots in the crossing wind. Consistent? I think so. :<) I am working on this one at the moment. Playing with sizing for the Uragan, it is now this accurate at 80 yard with boring regularity. Just had to find a size of the durned choke! Love the Cz barrel. It came polished form the factory. One chore I didn't have too do for a change. LOL

It is pouring down rain right now, and windy. Otherwise I wouldn't have the time to be this long winded.

Knife

@knifemaker have you ever considered building 6mm? Im kinda tempted to try it but I dunno would 308texan valve dump with such small barrel. I think 6mm might be even better than 257 or 223 when it comes to long range shooting. But amazingly little experiments done by anyone maybe its due same as 172cal. Really limited ammount of molds to cast.