$2,000 PCPs tested at 10-20 yards for accuracy - when will this madness stop?

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I appreciate your insight oldspook. Differing opinions...there is no right or wrong answer. My point is that I hope dealers and manufacturers meet customer expectations of expected proof of accuracy of a particular model. If the demand is there, the market will make it happen. But if people are seemingly content with the current ways and/or do not voice their expectations we are going to receive our handy 10 or 20 yard target cards with a single hole group to which little practical meaning can be attached. Such card would have been OK in the 80's for my trusty solid RWS 54 with the not very accurate RWS pellets. But with today's PCPs I expect more.

I am not a benchrest champion, nor do I aspire to be one, but I aspire to achieve consistent MOA groups one day. Will I ever get there? Who knows, but I know that many airgunners are motivated to reach that target. Also PCPs are getting much better than the ability of the shooter (me possibly included) could ever evolve. And records are meant to be broken. 

But let's not get hung up on the MOA benchmark, the focus was on expectations of proof of accuracy. MOA was a benchmark I chose for comparison purposes that is certainly at the very high-end of the scale at 100 yards if considering a distance between 10 yards and 100 yards. I do not need a 20 yard target card to tell me that the rifle operates. I expected it to function before the dealer packed it up for shipment. 

My point about PB and airgun prices was with the average airgunner and the average PB buyer in mind. Not many average PB buyers would pay more than $1,000 for a PB but many average airgunners will pay $1,500-2,000 for airguns. Not many airgunners will buy $5,000 Thomas rifles but the FX, Daystate,and various $1,500 bullpups could be considered nowadays mainstream as far as an "average airgunner" is concerned.

Thanks for your input. If we would all agree...this would be a very boring place....
 
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These are our toys, some more expensive than others. With the added expense there should be a certain level of quality. The level of quality may be in the form of craftsmanship, performance, aesthetics. Whatever it may be, the manufacturer is putting a value on it and expecting us, the consumer to pay for it. Now it's up to us, the silly gooses that are so hung up in this hobby to make a judgement call and determine if the product is worth it or not. The reputation of such companies are at stake here. If these companies are making revolutionary guns and asking 2k for them they will get a few bites. But when the reviews come in that the gun blows. Well, do you think the sales will continue? It's a buyers market, always has been. These forums are quite a powerful tool if the manufacturer takes some time to review our critique and suggestions vs turning guns and shipping them out the door without proper QC. This being the case with some manufacturers, will not be getting repeat loyal consumers. The community will understand that it's a lottery and playing the odd on whether or not they will be getting a lemon. Let's see how long this last.
 
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"Boombots74"These are our toys, some more expensive than others. With the added expense there should be a certain level of quality. The level of quality may be in the form of craftsmanship, performance, aesthetics. Whatever it may be, the manufacturer is putting a value on it and expecting us, the consumer to pay for it. Now it's up to us, the silly gooses that are so hung up in this hobby to make a judgement call and determine if the product is worth it or not. The reputation of such companies are at stake here. If these companies are making revolutionary guns and asking 2k for them they will get a few bites. But when the reviews come in that the gun blows. Well, do you think the sales will continue? It's a buyers market, always has been. These forums are quite a powerful tool if the manufacturer takes some time to review our critique and suggestions vs turning guns and shipping them out the door without proper QC. This being the case with some manufacturers, will not be getting repeat loyal consumers. The community will understand that it's a lottery and playing the odd on whether or not they will be getting a lemon. Let's see how long this last.
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Well said.
 
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"Boombots74".................................These forums are quite a powerful tool if the manufacturer takes some time to review our critique and suggestions vs turning guns and shipping them out the door without proper QC. This being the case with some manufacturers, will not be getting repeat loyal consumers. The community will understand that it's a lottery and playing the odd on whether or not they will be getting a lemon. Let's see how long this last.
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Good points. When presented an option between two dealers selling the same PCP, with one dealer providing a 40 yard proof of accuracy card and the other not, most will select the 40 yard dealer. Now, is that 40-yard dealer cutting into his profits by not being able to sell those PCPs in his received inventory that did not pass the test of accuracy? Or he is able/supposed to send the PCP back to the manufacturer because it clearly did not live up to either the advertised accuracy or airgun industry standards, thus forcing the manufacturer to do better design and QC?.

By the way, there are (carefully-worded) advertised claims of accuracy (half inch at 40 yards and beyond) for at least one brand that I know of, and that claim is on one of the most prominent dealer/distributor's website. So when a PCP from that same dealer for the same advertised brand comes with a 20-yard card....why should I sheepishly accept that?
 
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As far as I know, RAW makes no claim to accuracy, or includes a test target with their rifles. But no one should doubt they are buying quality and accuracy with RAW.
If a manufacturer includes a test target with their guns they are setting a benchmark. If a guy shooting off a rolled up towel from the hood of his pickup cannot meet this standard would he be justified in returning the rifle? How bout the guy with a high quality bench setup shooting a different lot number of JSBs?
 
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"scrane"As far as I know, RAW makes no claim to accuracy, or includes a test target with their rifles. But no one should doubt they are buying quality and accuracy with RAW.
If a manufacturer includes a test target with their guns they are setting a benchmark. If a guy shooting off a rolled up towel from the hood of his pickup cannot meet this standard would he be justified in returning the rifle? How bout the guy with a high quality bench setup shooting a different lot number of JSBs?
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The benchmark you are alluding to benchmarks the capability of the rifle and not the buyer. Should one be allowed to return a Tiger Woods golf club because he cannot play golf with it like Tiger Woods?

Receiving a PCP with a credible target card could actually prevent those returns that are based on the inability of the shooter....would be harder to blame inaccuracy of a proven PCP on the PCP itself. But if you receive a PCP without such proof of test who is there to say if that PCP is a lemon vs. your poor skills or vs. messing with it?
 
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Hi guys

A while back I purchased Daystate Airwolf MTC .22. Advertised as a 40 ft lb gun
At makers set pressure and using Bisley Magnums. It never went higher than 35 to 36 ft lbs.
Phoned the company and asked for gun test data, which is apparently taken and kept for all their guns made. Was told some data but not all, mislaid, lost or whatever. Further spoke to boss Tony B who said after telling me I was using wrong pellet wrong pressure guff etc. Said YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED FOR A 40 ft lb gun. 
Agreed it will not make much difference to accuracy but was disappointed. Am told by engineers that it is makers tolerances, ie plus or minus 5%. So difference between best and worst 10% . Your 200 bhp car could be only 190 bhp or 210 bhp.
Would much prefer honesty and transparency from makers than off the shelf guns underperforming their designed standards.
Frankly this advertising exaggeration covers most car makers, internet providers and many other areas. As long as Joe Public puts up with it we have but ourselves to blame.
Makers should publish minimum standards say indoors 50 yards BR 10 shot group and state pellet used. If one maker started doing this then in time others would follow or lose sales when buyers were fobbed off. 
Certainly no excuse for not doing this on high end guns.
Finally dealers could offer this for a small charge say $10 or equivalent and accept or reject gun at point of sale.

safe shooting
 
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"wolfie"
Would much prefer honesty and transparency from makers than off the shelf guns underperforming their designed standards.
Frankly this advertising exaggeration covers most car makers, internet providers and many other areas. As long as Joe Public puts up with it we have but ourselves to blame.
Makers should publish minimum standards say indoors 50 yards BR 10 shot group and state pellet used. If one maker started doing this then in time others would follow or lose sales when buyers were fobbed off. 
Certainly no excuse for not doing this on high end guns.
Finally dealers could offer this for a small charge say $10 or equivalent and accept or reject gun at point of sale.

safe shooting
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Great points, Such practice would NOT necessitate having to wait for and rely on third-party reviews such as those by Hard Air Magazine, or by random individuals on youtube. I know that right now many are waiting for a credible review on the Priest and are holding off buying one until one is made public. Such credible reviews/tests could have prevented the (in some cases probably undeserved) initial claims of bad QC and inaccuracy that the FX Impact received from various random buyers.

Please do not think I want to be critical of Hard Air Magazine, I really like their dedication to the hobby and I think they are a quality publication. Just found this one issue on the 10-yard PCP accuracy test of questionable utility. 
 
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"fe7565"I love Hard Air Magazine, but come on...10-yard targets (albeit 10 shots) to determine accuracy for an FX Wildcat? Same thing with AOA's 20 yard proof of accuracy target I got with my FX Impact purchase. I laughed and tossed it in the garbage.

Do you drive a Ferrari (or any high-end PCPs) at 30mph to test a car that has a top speed of 200mph? Are will still back in 1980s? When will this "safe-space" mentality or face-saving by the dealers, and reviewers stop? When will airgunners demand more instead of having to contend with such patronizing "proof" of accuracy?

I know that as distance increases the probability of finding less accurate rifles in a given group of PCPs increases significantly. I do not think anyone expects to receive a 100-yard target card of 1 inch groups with every high-end PCP....or a large majority of PCPs would never be able to be sold by the dealer. But there must be a reasonable and fair testing distance for a $2K rifle vs a $80 Walmart springer. 

I see Charlie from Georgia Airguns testing his rigs at 40 yards (albeit only 5 shots). RAW, I believe, tests theirs all the way to the full distance of the intended model's range (i.e. 100 yards). If I would send my gun to a tuner, I would certainly not accept a 10-yard target card as proof of accurizing. When you buy a used $2,000 PCP and the seller assures you that it shoots single hole at 10 yards all day long...what are you going to think?

FX Wildcat Air Rifle Test Review .22 Caliber.
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http://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/fx-wildcat-air-rifle-test-review-22-caliber/embed/[/QUOTE]
I understand that you feel that way, and I respect that, but your argumentation however, makes no sense.

A Tesla is not a sports car. They call themselves a "Premium Sedan and SUV". That does not stop them, or anyone else, from showing off their ridiculous 0- 60 numbers. And why wouldn't they?! That car is a rocket on four wheels! Would you call that madness?

Even though a Rolls Royce Phantom is clearly not made for speeding or driving fast, they still test how fast it goes from 0 - 60 (5.8 seconds). Would you call that madness?

You know that they list the mpg of a LaFerrari, right? Would you call that madness?

My point is, not everyone is getting a "high-end" air rifle for $2000 bucks, so they can kill birds 120 yards away, and brag about it. Maybe they want to brag with it at their local 10 meter range?! Maybe they get a kick out of just owning something really nice that shoots hole-in-hole at 20m? Who knows and who cares?

When I buy higher-end parts for my R/C Helicopters, I like the fact that they were manufactured to a 1/1000th of a mm, instead of the cheaper parts that were manufactured to 1/100th. They worked just as good as the 1/1000th ones, but hey, I want the "nice" stuff. 

You know what?! Never mind. I am wasting a bunch of time here... What I should have said instead is:

0 - 60 always was, and always will be, a "benchmark" that auto makers and tester use, no matter what car they test. From Smart Car to LaFerrari. 
Same goes for 10m and 25m (I guess. Haven't been in the Air Gun scene for long enough to really know, ha ha). Those number will always be there. 

BAM! I have done it again. : )

Kmd
 
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I agree with that comment with a lot of variables. Who's to say its the gun and not another variable, ie, the pellet, shooter or the wind. I get all that. What I am saying is, I would like to see specs and capabilities of our toys, real specs. Like buying a car, the specs are industry standards that all car manufacturers abide by.
Horse power, torque, weight, turning ratio, acceleration, even minimum fuel requirements. Telling you to use a minimum octane! Would it be so hard for a manufacturer to say this gun is for X brand and grain pellets? I don't think so. Now the pellet manufacturer needs to maintain those dimensions and stop changing their molds. Master molds manufacturers! Make a mold from the master molds (form). Keep the consistency! It's critical for us!

Specs are crucial to me, a few of you guys know what I do for a living and by saying that if my specs, (cut sheet) says one thing and I get something else...o boy, I am not a happy camper. It could ruin my while operation.

On the flip side where you go to Walmart and pick up a Springer that shoots 1200 fps and the manufacturer conveniently leaves out the grain of the pellet and that the gun can't hit the broad side of a barn! That's fine, you have consumers from the low end to the high end of the market. So is that gun for you? Maybe and maybe not. These are tactics designed to lure and get the uninformed consumer to make that purchase, because 1200 fps is better than 900 fps ....right?
Listen, if the manufacturer can put out a gun with real results and real data in closed conditions, mounted on a vice, no glare, x-ray scope with pixy dust pellets and show it. I'm down for that. Because if you make that claim and prove it, I know the gun is capable of it and I just need to work on getting to that level.

You want to drive that F1, it's all regulated by the committee, even the spoiler pitch! All the cars are tuned by the world's best, it all comes down the to one behind the wheel......and a bit of luck ; )
 
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"kmd1984"
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0 - 60 always was, and always will be, a "benchmark" that auto makers and tester use, no matter what car they test. From Smart Car to LaFerrari. 
Same goes for 10m and 25m (I guess. Haven't been in the Air Gun scene for long enough to really know, ha ha). Those number will always be there. 

BAM! I have done it again. : )

Kmd
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I commend your loyalty to 1980's standards and to resisting change. You are proving a point that the same standards are applied to all the cars, but it only makes sense to consider them in certain cases. It makes little sense to worry about the acceleration of a Ford 150, if you only want a truck to haul things with. But surely will consider acceleration when buying a Corvette. But if the car industry test would be non-existent then you are just buying something on claims. Or if the test only ranges from 0-10mph...that data is meaningless In the case of the Ford 150 -or in the case of a Walmart $80 rifle- who worries about 0-60 performance anyway? But when forking out $2K for a PCP one would expect a meaningful and impartial demonstration of the capabilities of that particular rifle. (not knocking entry-level or youth rifles, and I am only mentioning PCPs because of the high expectations of accuracy)
 
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The retailer and a reviewer are two different things.

The retailer is just checking it is working. I don't know of any retailer who makes accuracy guarantees. We all know that there is a range of accuracy and you might get good or bad luck. The retailer is just a middle-man.

A reviewer on the other hand... It's their job to test accuracy so doing 10 yard groups is just a sign on incompetence. If they can't find space to shoot a 50 yard group then they shouldn't be doing a review at all. They are certainly in no position to advise others about how accurate a gun is. 

I don't know why anyone bothers with reviewers these days. Site like this give you far more useful info and info that is more statistically significant. 
 
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I really got to laugh at this, I have a 38 dollar 760 Crossman pump rifle smooth bore, 177 , I have never shot steel BBs with this gun.
I installed a 3x9 bug buster scope, 3 X cost of gun, I shot quarter size groups at 20 yards with this gun.
People shooting 20 yards,( I know that some people just do not have the space and back yards for longer shots. )
Shooting 1,500 and 2,000 dollar guns at 20 yards,,,, Thanks for helping the sport.
Mike 
 
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I only have 25 yards for paper targets and if a gun keeps 10 in a ragged hole, I'm happy. I do have 1 in swingers at 53 yards and they get rung pretty often. TheCondor keeps hitting them dead center. Great gun for the money.

I have an FX 400 FT gun in 22 cal and that just gets boring at 53 yard swingers. May set up a fly box at the 50 yard mark and see what these guns can really do. 

Jamie
 
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I also found the 10-20 yd targets questionable for the higher priced guns. If its just to show the gun was functioning properly that is one thing but if it's to show accuracy that's another.

I also find it questionable some of the guns selling for 2k have an abundance of quality issues that aren't really spoken of besides the chatter on air gun forums. Most people seem to accept the short comings due to the potential of the gun. I mean some of the stuff I see I'm shocked would make it past Q&A but I digress.

I think that's why I rely heavily on some of the youtubers and general users and their personal experience with the gun.
 
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