$2,000 PCPs tested at 10-20 yards for accuracy - when will this madness stop?

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fe7565

fe7565

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Oct 13, 2015
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VA, United States
I love Hard Air Magazine, but come on...10-yard targets (albeit 10 shots) to determine accuracy for an FX Wildcat? Same thing with AOA's 20 yard proof of accuracy target I got with my FX Impact purchase. I laughed and tossed it in the garbage.

Do you drive a Ferrari (or any high-end PCPs) at 30mph to test a car that has a top speed of 200mph? Are will still back in 1980s? When will this "safe-space" mentality or face-saving by the dealers, and reviewers stop? When will airgunners demand more instead of having to contend with such patronizing "proof" of accuracy?

I know that as distance increases the probability of finding less accurate rifles in a given group of PCPs increases significantly. I do not think anyone expects to receive a 100-yard target card of 1 inch groups with every high-end PCP....or a large majority of PCPs would never be able to be sold by the dealer. But there must be a reasonable and fair testing distance for a $2K rifle vs a $80 Walmart springer. 

I see Charlie from Georgia Airguns testing his rigs at 40 yards (albeit only 5 shots). RAW, I believe, tests theirs all the way to the full distance of the intended model's range (i.e. 100 yards). If I would send my gun to a tuner, I would certainly not accept a 10-yard target card as proof of accurizing. When you buy a used $2,000 PCP and the seller assures you that it shoots single hole at 10 yards all day long...what are you going to think?

LATE EDIT : Please do not think I want to be critical of Hard Air Magazine, I really like their dedication to the hobby and I think they are a quality publication. Just found this one issue on the 10-yard PCP accuracy test of questionable utility. 

FX Wildcat Air Rifle Test Review .22 Caliber.[/QUOTE]http://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/fx-wildcat-air-rifle-test-review-22-caliber/embed/
 
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I agree with the 50yd group. 25-30yd group on a good for me are no more than 2-3 .177 pellets around, outside to outside. On a regular day about an inch with the same measurement. Thats with 8.4gr Air Arms shot at just under 12fpe. If your gun is shooting at 20fpe or better then if they can't match or better these grouops with it's favorite pellet then either you, or your rifle, or both are the issue.
 
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I've yet to spend more than $1600 on a rifle. My $1000 Air Arms S500 is capable of at least 5shot groups at 50yds of .317 c-t-c. So I feel that if you spend more than $500(my marauder, first pcp was able to print the same size groups at the hands of a much better shooter than I). So why do we expect this type of accuracy from a $2000 gun when a $500 gun can provide the same results?
 
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I just want to add: based on current practice it's not reasonable to expect from the manufacturer to ensure that every PCP they make is actually performing MOA groups up to 100 yards. It's reasonable to assume that high-level PCPs are designed and made to specifications that allow them to have MOA accuracy out of the box, or with some tuning. Those airgunners who want MOA accuracy will choose a $1,500-2,000 PCP and not a $400 one. Not saying that a $400 PCPs is not capable of such accuracy out of the box, or with some tuning effort, just saying that for a Formula 1 race one will not show up with a stock Corvette. 

What about the dealer's role? What I see being done now is basically the dealer starting up the Formula 1 car and driving it a few feet to make sure it's running. What if the dealer (advertising and) makes sure that the MOA-capable PCPs perform at MOA-level before being sold? There is an inherent risk: if the dealer-tested high-end PCP does not live up to the MOA expectations now they are facing a choice of sending it back to the manufacturer, or not being able to sell that particular rifle, or only able sell it at a discount, or having to do a tune on it.

Currently dealers/distributors in the sales-chain are not expected to ensure that all $2K PCPs are tuned to perform at MOA level. Not sure if they should be compelled to do so unless they are compensated for it. But there should be a happy middle-point somewhere between the dealer testing every PCP for MOA accuracy and the 10-20 yard accuracy test. 

Those airgunners who are able to perform effective tuning on their own PCPs (not me) may know that high-level PCPs (on the average) should need less (if any) tuning to perform MOA accuracy, while $400 PCPs may require significantly more effort/money, and they may never reach MOA-level accuracy. So why would I have to accept the same performance test for a $1M Ferrari as for a $80K Corvette?
 
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"John_in_Ma"I've yet to spend more than $1600 on a rifle. My $1000 Air Arms S500 is capable of at least 5shot groups at 50yds of .317 c-t-c. So I feel that if you spend more than $500(my marauder, first pcp was able to print the same size groups at the hands of a much better shooter than I). So why do we expect this type of accuracy from a $2000 gun when a $500 gun can provide the same results?
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John I see your point, and I am not knocking less expensive rifles as far as accuracy is concerned, but on average it's much less likely that a $400 PCP would perform at the level of a $2K PCP in the hands of an average shooter without tuning. Thus if I pay 3-4 times more for a product I expect verified performance and not a box of chocolates where you never know what you going to get as in the case of a 10-20 yard target card.
 
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My CZ rifles all come with a target that the factory shoots 5 shots. It just proves that the rifle will shoot not how well it shoots. But my .17 did have one that was a dandy. 

If you saw how excited Ted was to shoot moa at 100 yards in one of his videos in the last few months. It will explain how hard it is. The only place I see a lot of moa air guns is on the internet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyybmryvRhs
 
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"Kim"Anyone who shoots regularly outdoors will tell you how hard it is to achieve 1 MOA groups. Wind, pellet variation, barrel cleanliness, and other factors can and will mask the actual quality of the gun and barrel.

Indoors bench-rested, yes. Still, not many indoor ranges of 100yd.
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Goodtogo and Kim....I agree with MOA being a tall order, but I had to choose a performance benchmark for comparison purposes. The actual distance for sensible testing is debatable, albeit 50 yards sounds good. I can live with 40 yards as well. As far as groups....I think one would need 10-shots for better probability. And group size is debatable, but most I think would prefer under 3/4 inch at 50 yards out of the box.
 
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Regarding the 20 yard test shot "card" or target received from AoA when purchasing an air rifle from them. I have purchased 3 air rifles from them and asked this very question. Why the 20 yard test target and could you sight it in for me at 30 or 40 yards for me rather than 20. The answer is not for their lack of desire to accommodate that request from their customers . The problem is quite simple. Their store / warehouse / facility is located in an urban industrial park. They do not have the room. Their indoor range is 20 yards or so. They don't have an extended outdoor range at their facility. It is my understanding that in the past they had a 50 yard "outdoor" range set up behind the building but due to "concerns" and "complaints" from other tenants in the immediate vicinity they had to shut the outdoor range down. What they did do for me me was sight one of my purchases in for 40 yards in the 20 yard range based upon and by using chair gun. When I took it home and tested it (FX Wildcat .25) the very first magazine (8 shots) were just over a 1/2" group that was centered about 3/8" at the 2 o'clock position from my POA. Just thought I would share my experience regarding the topic as it pertains to AoA. 
 
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I found my matador's shot count was worth the three times the cost of my mrod. The mrod was just as accurate as my matador and cricket. I found it really hard to sell my mrod but one of the reasons I sold it was because of its low shot count. I think for those who are welling to spend the amount we do, we tell our selves the small gains we pay for are worth it. That's what I chant before I look at my bank account.
 
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@glassman...I only mentioned AOA because I wanted to stick to first-hand experience. Not questioning their desire to please the customer if the customer voiced a request for service. But apparently, not many voiced a desire to have their PCPs tested at a sensible distance otherwise they would have met the need one way or another. Any company that is able to organize a world-class EBR event should be able to overcome range limitations. Back to my favorite analogy: won't sell many Ferraris if the test drive is limited to the dealer's parking lot.
 
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I think that accuracy testing is not the responsibility of the retailer. The builder of the weapon should be responsible for providing the shot card. To be honest, the retailer taking the step of shooting a group may be the very thing that puts them on the line when they have to take one back because the customer is not happy.

When you buy a PB rifle, do you get a target card from Joe's Gun Shop? I never have.
 
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@glassman…I only mentioned AOA because I wanted to stick to first-hand experience. Not questioning their desire to please the customer if the customer voiced a request for service. But apparently, not many voiced a desire to have their PCPs tested at a sensible distance otherwise they would have met the need one way or another. Any company that is able to organize a world-class EBR event should be able to overcome range limitations. Back to my favorite analogy: won’t sell many Ferraris if the test drive is limited to the dealer’s parking lot.

@fe7565 ... I am in complete agreement with your sentiment. Just want to clarify that there are sometimes simple overlooked reasons for organizations to do what they do. I would expect that if there was enough demand by customers for that service they would find a way to meet that demand. They choose to take the easy way out by using only what they have readily available and that seems to satisfy the great majority of their customers. Speaking of wheels, it's the squeaky ones that get greased.
 
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"oldspook"
I think that accuracy testing is not the responsibility of the retailer. The builder of the weapon should be responsible for providing the shot card. To be honest, the retailer taking the step of shooting a group may be the very thing that puts them on the line when they have to take one back because the customer is not happy.

When you buy a PB rifle, do you get a target card from Joe's Gun Shop? I never have.
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I think the retailer should ensure that the quality is as advertised and if not, deal with the manufacturer. 

As far as never receiving a target card: this is exactly the way of thinking I am hoping will change. I sure hope that airgunners -like me- evolved in their expectations since the 1980's. Also, I am not sure that powder-burner are a good comparison to airguns, as the user expectations differ in many ways. Why would anyone pay $2K for a bb-gun when you can get two top-quality powder-burners for that same price.

 
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"fe7565"
"oldspook"
I think that accuracy testing is not the responsibility of the retailer. The builder of the weapon should be responsible for providing the shot card. To be honest, the retailer taking the step of shooting a group may be the very thing that puts them on the line when they have to take one back because the customer is not happy.

When you buy a PB rifle, do you get a target card from Joe's Gun Shop? I never have.
Click to expand...
I think the retailer should ensure that the quality is as advertised and if not, deal with the manufacturer. 

As far as never receiving a target card: this is exactly the way of thinking I am hoping will change. I sure hope that airgunners -like me- evolved in their expectations since the 1980's. Also, I am not sure that powder-burner are a good comparison to airguns, as the user expectations differ in many ways. Why would anyone pay $2K for a bb-gun when you can get two top-quality powder-burners for that same price.


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I suspect that the retailer shoots those groups precisely because he wants to ensure that the gun is shooting as advertised. I merely submit that it is not the retailer's responsibility to "filter" guns between the manufacturer and the customer, other than to ensure they do what they are advertised to do. I don't recall seeing any MOA specs for any rifle other than the occasional PB rifle and even those are not guarantees.

I don't know about airgunners -like you- because I don't know your life experience. My expectations have not really evolved since the 80's. They have sort of morphed but I'm not a bench rest champion, maybe you are... I am impressed with the changes in the industry since my first "real" airgun (Sheridan 5mm Blue Streak). I remember being upset with the rifle and calling the factory about the fact that the best I could do was hold all my shots on a match book cover at 25 yards. The lady sort of laughed at me and said, "What do you expect? It's an air rifle." I couldn't argue about that but my .22 PB could do better (slightly better)...

Anyway, I think the more you put on the resellers, the more we will have to pay the middleman. The manufacturer should be the entity held responsible for releasing a properly functioning rifle that meets it's specifications and from what I see that is exactly what they are doing.

Just my two... no need to get upset.

I should add, it is really, really, easy to spend a lot more than $2000.00 on a PB to get quality.
 
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