Your Top Five Tips for hold sensitive springers?

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FlexWagtail

FlexWagtail

Member
Aug 11, 2016
130
17
MD, United States
I just took delivery on a highly recommended Weihrauch .177 HW97K, but it does not come with instructions on how to remove the Voodoo curse known as “hold sensitivity”. LOL

Background: After a lot of PCP play, this is my first “high-end” (non-Walmart) springer, so my experience level is low. 

But really, touch this thing wrong and it starts spraying pellets like an open choke 12-guage. I’m talking 2-3” groups at 15 yards hand rested on bag/bench for God’s sake! I can’t be that pathetic, can I?

It’s so bad, I can’t even begin to think about picking a pellet. They are all bad with me on the trigger -- JSB, H/N, CP etc. Tried ‘em all. 

There’s nothing wrong I can find with this gun. Shoots 7-8 grains at 910 fps all day long. Multiple scopes, same bad results. Sure, it's out-of-the box without some black magic British tune, and it buzzes a little, but I'm looking to lose an inch on these groups, not a few millimeters.

Maybe you can help. And perhaps be more more specific than just artillery hold and repeatable motions. I think I have the idea on that, although my execution may be poor.

So: How firm to the cheek? Palm the grip or literally only touch the trigger? Snug to the shoulder, or completely free floating, or somewhere in between? Shooting left – am I too firm on grip? Shooting right – am I too firm on cheek weld? Shooting wild – is my trigger pull a mess? WTF?

The gun is a Voodoo Child. Help!
 
Is your scope worthy? Is it on tight? This could be the culprit and not the gun or you. 

Did you clean the barrel? Did you look through it? Check for anything wrong. Check all your screws, all nice and tight? 

May need to take it down and make sure it’s not over lubed. 

Is there anyone around that has one like it? Let them shoot your gun, you shoot theirs. 

Ultimately you will be able to experiment enough to find the right “voodoo” but if it’s that bad, you may never because it may be a problem, not you. 

Hope better answers come along. But hopefully this could help too. 
 
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"intenseaty22"Is your scope worthy? Is it on tight? This could be the culprit and not the gun or you. 
Did you clean the barrel? Did you look through it? Check for anything wrong. Check all your screws, all nice and tight? 
May need to take it down and make sure it’s not over lubed. 
Is there anyone around that has one like it? Let them shoot your gun, you shoot theirs. 
Ultimately you will be able to experiment enough to find the right “voodoo” but if it’s that bad, you may never because it may be a problem, not you. 
Hope better answers come along. But hopefully this could help too.
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Multiple scopes and mounts tried and all check out. Screws tight. Barrel scrubbed with Hoppes 9 upon delivery. Clean. 2-tins of pellets have eliminated erly deiseling, I think. Have not disassembled gun looking for other trouble. That's why I'm down to blaming this on the shooter -- (me).
 
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It may still not be you. Check out some videos where they talk about all the grease inside the spring and other internals. 

A bad seal etc. 

Try different rest points on the bag. Try very loose grip. Try a tight grip on everything (some guns will shoot this way). 

Hard to say without being there. Like I said, a friend may be able to shoot it and rule out the hold. 

Ultimately could change out spring kit. Vortek etc. 

Good luck. 
 
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Just out of curiosity what do the chrony numbers look like o a 10 shot string?? how is the ES? 

15 yards that thing should be at least cloverleafing it pretty easily I would say. try 10 yards for the fun of it and see what happens maybe?

do you have your hand under the stock on the bag this helped me out a great deal. versus having the gun rest on the bag. 

15 yards all pellets should be working pretty good imo
 
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I shoot a Diana 34 .22 and do not use the artillery hold. Tried it, never could do much with it and just didn't like it. I keep a very tight grip on the trigger hand, hard against my cheek, hard into the shoulder and a medium grip on the fore stock. I can shoot 1" groups from 20 yards off hand and 1/2" from 15 off hand and far better using a shooting stick (monopole), gripping the stock against the side of the stick. All this after LOTS of practice.
 
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"intenseaty22"It may still not be you. Check out some videos where they talk about all the grease inside the spring and other internals. 
A bad seal etc. 
Try different rest points on the bag. Try very loose grip. Try a tight grip on everything (some guns will shoot this way). 
Hard to say without being there. Like I said, a friend may be able to shoot it and rule out the hold. 
Ultimately could change out spring kit. Vortek etc. 
Good luck.
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I liked the "good luck" part!. Have tried strings resting on bag to front, and all the way back to trigger guard without a whole lot of better result. I'm not trying to strangle this gun. No death grips etc. Whats wierd is there are brief moments of brilliance, where I can group em' up in a little cloverleaf and then it goes back to sh*t. (Kinda like at the golf range when you hit three good ones, then slice so bad you break a guy's windshield in the parking lot.)
 
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"davemac18"Just out of curiosity what do the chrony numbers look like o a 10 shot string?? how is the ES? 
15 yards that thing should be at least cloverleafing it pretty easily I would say. try 10 yards for the fun of it and see what happens maybe?
do you have your hand under the stock on the bag this helped me out a great deal. versus having the gun rest on the bag. 
15 yards all pellets should be working pretty good imo
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I don't have a shot string to quote you, but everything looked VERY consistent during one session where I ran about 50 over it.. Like 908 to 915 for an 8 grain of your choice. 14 ft. lbs. Ive tried relaxed hand under bag and bare naked bag without a lot of change in results. As I noted in a previous post, I was able to acheive brief moments of brilliance (or at least cloverleafs) before losing it again. Stock screws checked and tightened best I know how without stripping them or going crazy.
 
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"Bogey47"Have you tried tightening the screws, particularly the two fore and aft of the trigger guard?
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Stock screws check out, best I can tell. Snugged up so tight I was afraid of stripping. I wonder if I ought to back 'em all out, inspect for some anomoly, and reinstall? I have not had the stock off or attempted to open up the internals. I guess I could.
 
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Scope info: right now going with a UTG bug buster I pulled off another gun because the little guy is regarded as super springer-proof. It's light and appears to be solidly mounted with no slippage (the one-piece Diana mount I have doesn't fit the bug buster otherwise I'd use that). The only scope that fits the Diana mount is a cheap Hatsan Optima that I don't trust with recoil.
 
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I’m not to big on the “artillery hold”. I think it really boils down to consistency. My suggestion would be to bring the gun up to shoulder a few times. Find what is comfortable for you. Kind of like finding your natural point of aim. It’s been my experience different guns come to shoulder differently. Don’t force anything. As you bring it to shoulder just let everything line up naturally. Your grip on the forstock, your trigger hand, your cheek weld etc. once you get that straight your hold will be consistent and repeatable. Some rifles do like a tight or relaxed grip, but to me that comes second to finding that natural point where it comes to shoulder. Your pellet choice will obviously play a big part in accuracy. Lastly, as odd as it may sound, I would without hesitation tune it down in power. A rifle shooting at 14 foot pounds is much different than the same rifle shooting at 10.5 - 11.5 foot pounds.

Biggest thing is dont experiment to much with different “holds”. Find your natural hold with that particular rifle and then experiment with THAT hold. Just my two cents though so don’t take it as gospel.
 
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The artillery hold by Tom Gaylord
Copyright PyramydAir.com ©2009. All Rights Reserved.Want to become more accurate with your spring rifle? Want to equal those unbelieveable groups others seem to get? The secret is in how you hold the rifle, and the name for the proper hold is the "artillery hold."

I didn't invent this hold. It was over a century old when I discovered it in the 1990s. But I did give it the name. I did so because I wanted to be able to discuss the hold with others and to teach it to as many airgunners as possible. Giving it a name gave it a life of its own, and now I see other airgunners passing it along to new shooters.
Put simply, the artillery hold means holding your air rifle so lightly that it can recoil in any direction it wants to. Since the pellet remains in the barrel a long time after the shot, this means that the muzzle will always be in the same place, shot after shot, because there's no outside influence forcing it to go elsewhere.

When you fire a spring-piston gun, the pellet doesn't start to move until the piston comes to a stop. By that time, the gun is already moving in recoil. It's also vibrating in all directions. If you were to try to restrain it by holding the stock firmly, you would establish a vibration node that would send the muzzle to a different place. Since you can never repeat a hold exactly, you'll throw your shots all over the place if you hold the rifle tightly. If you just let it float on your hand, it will settle down and start grouping to the best of its capability.
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I used to shoot military match hi power. When in position with the sling wrapped around arms, etc that rifle was tight. The hardest thing I had to unlearn was to stop treating the gun like a match grade M-14 and lightly grip the rifle. That made a YOUGE improvement.
 
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"Kyler" Since you can never repeat a hold exactly, you'll throw your shots all over the place if you hold the rifle tightly.
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I grip my spring gun tightly and shoot very accurately that way, better than using an artillery hold. I've heard this from others as well. Depends on who's doing the shooting. Best to try both methods and go with what works best for you.
 
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"Ag5643"I’m not to big on the “artillery hold”. I think it really boils down to consistency. My suggestion would be to bring the gun up to shoulder a few times. Find what is comfortable for you. Kind of like finding your natural point of aim. It’s been my experience different guns come to shoulder differently. Don’t force anything. As you bring it to shoulder just let everything line up naturally. Your grip on the forstock, your trigger hand, your cheek weld etc. once you get that straight your hold will be consistent and repeatable. Some rifles do like a tight or relaxed grip, but to me that comes second to finding that natural point where it comes to shoulder. Your pellet choice will obviously play a big part in accuracy. Lastly, as odd as it may sound, I would without hesitation tune it down in power. A rifle shooting at 14 foot pounds is much different than the same rifle shooting at 10.5 - 11.5 foot pounds.
Biggest thing is dont experiment to much with different “holds”. Find your natural hold with that particular rifle and then experiment with THAT hold. Just my two cents though so don’t take it as gospel.
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I like this advice. I got so frustrated I'm sure I've been overthinking it. Kinda like guys learning golf. You can see 'em at the range contorting their stance, grip and bodies all which way, instead of just swinging. I wouldn't promote beer and guns, but maybe sitting with a cool one and justs chilling out on this might get me in the groove you suggest.
 
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"Kyler"The artillery hold by Tom Gaylord
Copyright PyramydAir.com ©2009. All Rights Reserved.Want to become more accurate with your spring rifle? Want to equal those unbelieveable groups others seem to get? The secret is in how you hold the rifle, and the name for the proper hold is the "artillery hold."
I didn't invent this hold. It was over a century old when I discovered it in the 1990s. But I did give it the name. I did so because I wanted to be able to discuss the hold with others and to teach it to as many airgunners as possible. Giving it a name gave it a life of its own, and now I see other airgunners passing it along to new shooters.
Put simply, the artillery hold means holding your air rifle so lightly that it can recoil in any direction it wants to. Since the pellet remains in the barrel a long time after the shot, this means that the muzzle will always be in the same place, shot after shot, because there's no outside influence forcing it to go elsewhere.
When you fire a spring-piston gun, the pellet doesn't start to move until the piston comes to a stop. By that time, the gun is already moving in recoil. It's also vibrating in all directions. If you were to try to restrain it by holding the stock firmly, you would establish a vibration node that would send the muzzle to a different place. Since you can never repeat a hold exactly, you'll throw your shots all over the place if you hold the rifle tightly. If you just let it float on your hand, it will settle down and start grouping to the best of its capability.
-----------------
I used to shoot military match hi power. When in position with the sling wrapped around arms, etc that rifle was tight. The hardest thing I had to unlearn was to stop treating the gun like a match grade M-14 and lightly grip the rifle. That made a YOUGE improvement.
Click to expand...
Yup, thanks for posting. I read it a dozen times while I was shopping for a springer and deciding if that;s the way I wanted to go. I have to say, when I went feather-lite loose on the gun I could achieve little moments of brilliance (like a 3-shot cloverleaf) but I would also find on follow through that sometimes the muzzle was ending badly off target (along with the pellet). I felt like I needed to give the gun some more active guidance with a little more firmness on the shoulder and cheek to control lateral kick, while leaving the foreend hand completely relaxed for recoil freedom forward and back. That's where I left off. Another poster mentioned tuning it down. I wouldn't know how to do that? like trimming some coils of the spring?
 
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"Windmill01"Can you return it and get another one? Sometimes you do get a dud rifle, even in supposedly top end makes. Then you’ll know for sure if it’s you or the rifle.
Good luck
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Got it from AOA and I don't think it would be a problem. But I'm not ready to give up on it yet. I can't imagine how a gun with a fixed barrel, and consistent chrony numbers could be the problem, notwithstanding some of the advice here to get into the internals and consider a de-tune (which I don't know how to do anyway).
 
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