Events XFT Phoenix 2022 Grand Prix! Ongoing post with prizes, details, discussion, etc.
- Thread starter Franklink
- Start date
The Match Director for the Phoenix XFT GP has asked me to post the following.
AOA, the Grand Prix Match Directors, and at least one shooter have had various meetings in attempts to hammer out all the details regarding the GP series structure. It was decided that each respective Match Director would run their match as they saw fit, and that extended to the points system. Each MD has six points that go towards the yearly total, to be distributed at match director discretion. Phoenix XFT GP director has chosen to award those 6 points in the following manner:
Also, In the ongoing effort to maintain fairness, Phoenix XFT GP Match Director has decided that anyone involved in those zoom calls, etc where the details of GP structure were discussed will not be eligible for any GP points at the Phoenix match.
AOA, the Grand Prix Match Directors, and at least one shooter have had various meetings in attempts to hammer out all the details regarding the GP series structure. It was decided that each respective Match Director would run their match as they saw fit, and that extended to the points system. Each MD has six points that go towards the yearly total, to be distributed at match director discretion. Phoenix XFT GP director has chosen to award those 6 points in the following manner:
- 2 points for 1st place pellet class
- 2 points for 2nd place pellet class
- 2 points for 3rd place pellet class
Also, In the ongoing effort to maintain fairness, Phoenix XFT GP Match Director has decided that anyone involved in those zoom calls, etc where the details of GP structure were discussed will not be eligible for any GP points at the Phoenix match.
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One last update.
Robert Buchanan/AOA has stated that ALL GP shooters will be given priority for a slot in the big October Extreme Benchrest when registration opens.
Robert Buchanan/AOA has stated that ALL GP shooters will be given priority for a slot in the big October Extreme Benchrest when registration opens.
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I am home from the AOA monthly match. Thank you Franklink for posting at my request. I also would like to add a couple of things. To also give as many people as possible a fair chance. If a ineligible person wins or places in a points receiving position. The points he/she would have received will be passed down to next place finisher. I also would like to Challenge other Match directors to follow suit I think this will only help the optics for the national campaign. This will show none of us are cheating or trying game the system we helped put in place. After all I we are doing this for the good of Airgunning and the future of Extreme/Xtreme ft. Right????
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Yes Mike, Ben is nofilters and also the Match Director for the XFT monthly matches as well as the Phoenix XFT Grand Prix. Since you pointed that out this is probably a great opportunity for some fact sharing and full disclosure type stuff.
The Phoenix XFT events, including the Grand Prix next week are run by Ben. Not only did he come up with the idea to hold monthly extreme ft events, he procured the location, created the course, maintains the relationship with Phoenix Rod and Gun to allow the matches to continue being held there and invested literally thousands of dollars into target development and subsequent production. Each month Ben sets up the course and tears down the course, sometimes with a handful of volunteers, and sometimes completely by himself. In short, PHX XFT is mostly a one man show. I do match write ups here on AGN and it could be said that I somewhat do the promoting on the forum. Another shooter has so far done all the website work. But Ben does the lions share of the leg work.
Extreme Benchrest, in complete contrast, is a venture put on by Airguns of Arizona. Their employees are responsible for all aspects of the event.
Airguns of Arizona sponsors the XFT events, and that sponsorship is simply prize money. Yes, that prize money is greatly appreciated, but that is the extent of the role played by AOA in XFT matches.
AOA, in their creation of the Grand Prix Series asked each of the small groups of people across the country putting on long range high power field target matches to hold a Grand Prix match. AOA left the running of the matches and the separation of GP points up to the match directors, since the match directors are by and large the ones responsible for each locales events. Ron in Texas decided to call his events "Textreme." Ben chose to call his PHX events, "Xtreme Field Target." Wayne and the Oregon guys have two different classes of pellet shooters, based on fpe. Ron is going to start Extreme Pistol matches. Ben allows slugs. Each of those details and differences (and others) makes each locales events unique and special.
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Trying to make it so this point system can not be gamed. Who better to game it than POSSIBLY the people setting up the system. So I stated that number one the max10 points allowed to take into EBR. So I also think the people involved should not be allowed to have a unfair advantage over others that may not understand completely how it works. So all match directors were told to run the matches and give out points (6) any way they see fit.
Apparently Center cut (Mike Bricker)thinks threatening me or calling me out on AGN is going to change my mind. Well that didn’t work so he emailed all the match directors Read for yourself
All, I have spent some time going through all of our correspondence. I can find numerous instances where we delegated the decision of how the six points were to be awarded to the MDs.
But I can find nowhere that we delegated the eligibility (or ineligibility) to receive award GP points to the MDs. I think we should take a vote on this ASAP and get a consensus.
Mike
Apparently Center cut (Mike Bricker)thinks threatening me or calling me out on AGN is going to change my mind. Well that didn’t work so he emailed all the match directors Read for yourself
All, I have spent some time going through all of our correspondence. I can find numerous instances where we delegated the decision of how the six points were to be awarded to the MDs.
But I can find nowhere that we delegated the eligibility (or ineligibility) to receive award GP points to the MDs. I think we should take a vote on this ASAP and get a consensus.
Mike
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Why is Mike involved in discussion with all the GP match directors about how the points are awarded? Mike just shoots the events but doesn't run one anywhere, that I'm aware of. Shooters having a say in point distribution is a clear conflict of interest.
Mike, are you going to start putting on long range/high power events in SoCal?
Mike, are you going to start putting on long range/high power events in SoCal?
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First, I want to thank everyone who spent their time on the phone, emails, and ZOOM calls, ironing out all the details for the GP matches. The wife and I are pretty new to this Air gun competition format and so far we are loving it. We have met a lot of very nice and helpful people at the events.
Now to the point at hand.....who is able to receive GP points at the matches?.....
When I worked at the DA's office I was incharge of setting up the "friendly" pistol combat shoot for the office and we invited other departments to shoot at it. Since I was the "Match Director" and had shot the course while setting it up, my score did not count in the standings, but I did get to shoot the course with all the competitors. Only fair in my eyes because I developed the course, I shot the course before anybody else to make sure it was a good and fun course. But when I shot at a different departments competition my score counted in the rankings and the "Match Director" of that departments score didn't count.
The people in the background helping set up the details (phone calls, emails, in person meetings) were allowed to shoot and their scores were allowed, because they were not the Match Director, they were the brain power behind setting up a fair and fun competition between departments. So I guess I am trying to figure out why are the people who helped set up the GP system and are not Match Directors are being "penalized"?
Just my 2 cents from a person outside looking in.
Tony P.
Now to the point at hand.....who is able to receive GP points at the matches?.....
When I worked at the DA's office I was incharge of setting up the "friendly" pistol combat shoot for the office and we invited other departments to shoot at it. Since I was the "Match Director" and had shot the course while setting it up, my score did not count in the standings, but I did get to shoot the course with all the competitors. Only fair in my eyes because I developed the course, I shot the course before anybody else to make sure it was a good and fun course. But when I shot at a different departments competition my score counted in the rankings and the "Match Director" of that departments score didn't count.
The people in the background helping set up the details (phone calls, emails, in person meetings) were allowed to shoot and their scores were allowed, because they were not the Match Director, they were the brain power behind setting up a fair and fun competition between departments. So I guess I am trying to figure out why are the people who helped set up the GP system and are not Match Directors are being "penalized"?
Just my 2 cents from a person outside looking in.
Tony P.
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I guess I’m totally confused. I have a couple of questions. Mike Bricker, why would you contact the other match directors? Since it’s obvious they all voted to leave the distribution of points up to themselves. What exactly would there be to vote on? Why are you calling for a vote ASAP? Talk about not being involved in politics. Exactly what is that? Most of all is it true you told Ben if he didn’t post on AGN immediately how he was going to award the points for his match “THE DECISION WOULD BE MADE FOR HIM”??? If so by whom? Because I too have witnessed how Ben Spencer has given selflessly. Untold hours spent at the range. With little or no compensation from anyone. The last time I was able to attend a match he called me at 11pm. I said what are you doing?He said I just got through cleaning up after the match.
After going to my first EBR match in 2014. I got into the sport because of the seemingly true love and camaraderie I witnessed between the individuals in attendance there that year. People from all over the world in all walks of life rich and poor, industry leaders, and individuals were in attendance. After having been in and on church boards for years, and thus witnessing how nasty, corrupt, and cutthroat the politics could be, all the while purporting to be the example of God and Christianity. I was so impressed! I wanted to be a part.
Not so much anymore! With all the infighting I see now all the way from industry leaders down to individuals in petty things like this. Gun owners are a minority in this country. Air gun owners are a super minority and those who actually compete I’m not sure what superlative to use to describe how much of a minority we are. If we don’t stand together we will fall. If we don’t figure out how to get along and keep it fun, this FLEDGING sport will die and go away.
After going to my first EBR match in 2014. I got into the sport because of the seemingly true love and camaraderie I witnessed between the individuals in attendance there that year. People from all over the world in all walks of life rich and poor, industry leaders, and individuals were in attendance. After having been in and on church boards for years, and thus witnessing how nasty, corrupt, and cutthroat the politics could be, all the while purporting to be the example of God and Christianity. I was so impressed! I wanted to be a part.
Not so much anymore! With all the infighting I see now all the way from industry leaders down to individuals in petty things like this. Gun owners are a minority in this country. Air gun owners are a super minority and those who actually compete I’m not sure what superlative to use to describe how much of a minority we are. If we don’t stand together we will fall. If we don’t figure out how to get along and keep it fun, this FLEDGING sport will die and go away.
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I would like to clarify the only points I am allowed to disperse are the 6 points allocated to each match director as they see fit. The participation point is not included and EVERYONE is eligible for this point. I perceive a conflict of interest with all that attended the zoom meetings to form these national rules. Since this is the first year and Phoenix match was kind of rushed at that. I think the people involved directly have a better understanding of how important it is to attend as many GPs as possible. Since my match is the first one and not much time to plan/market the importance for the regular or new to XFT shooters. Instead of putting these people at a disadvantage. I think this is the best and fairest most transparent way to do the points so there is ABSOLUTELY no conflict of interest. So the list of names NOT eligible for place points 1st,2nd, or 3rd At Phoenix Rod and Gun Club on 3-26-2022 &3-27-2022 is:
MD's- Ben Spencer Wayne Burns, Ron Robinson, and future director Dave Stephenson.
Also attending one or more of these meetings: Greg Glover, Lauren Parsons, Mike Bricker, and Robert Buchanan.
I hope this clears up any confusion from my previous post and I hope everyone has a great time. See ya there!!!!!
MD's- Ben Spencer Wayne Burns, Ron Robinson, and future director Dave Stephenson.
Also attending one or more of these meetings: Greg Glover, Lauren Parsons, Mike Bricker, and Robert Buchanan.
I hope this clears up any confusion from my previous post and I hope everyone has a great time. See ya there!!!!!
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Hmmmm...
While I understand and appreciate the quest for fairness and transparency, to make a shooter ineligible for contributing to the process is not right in my view. In what way would they have an advantage when the distances are known and the course and wind are the same for everyone? (unless there was a ribbon secretly attached somewhere on the course
) No one is allowed to practice on the course and THAT would be the only advantage that I can think of.
I would vote against penalizing any of these people for contributing as they have contributed so much to getting this Series going and definitely have shooting skills to do well in it.
Just my $0.02.
Bob
While I understand and appreciate the quest for fairness and transparency, to make a shooter ineligible for contributing to the process is not right in my view. In what way would they have an advantage when the distances are known and the course and wind are the same for everyone? (unless there was a ribbon secretly attached somewhere on the course
) No one is allowed to practice on the course and THAT would be the only advantage that I can think of. I would vote against penalizing any of these people for contributing as they have contributed so much to getting this Series going and definitely have shooting skills to do well in it.
Just my $0.02.
Bob
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Hmmmm...
While I understand and appreciate the quest for fairness and transparency, to make a shooter ineligible for contributing to the process is not right in my view. In what way would they have an advantage when the distances are known and the course and wind are the same for everyone? (unless there was a ribbon secretly attached somewhere on the course
I would vote against penalizing any of these people for contributing as they have contributed so much to getting this Series going and definitely have shooting skills to do well in it.
Just my $0.02.
Bob
I'm totally with Bobby on this, just sayin.
Thinking about the ineligibility aspect if I was an MD or VIP in the process of the GP series - that would take some of the fun out of shooting in the GP series for those that have contributed so much already to the sport of XFT.
In this sport it's really about who happens to be getting the wind right, along with who makes the least mistakes, that sets the top shooters apart.
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The "privileged" inside information: The more GP events you participate in, the more chances at points you would be able to take advantage of collecting? That's not a secret and I believe anyone can figure that out, even those that aren't in the know. As Bob pointed out, there is no obvious course advantages as distances are known to all.
Regardless, it's your match to run, Ben. Y'all have fun!!
Regardless, it's your match to run, Ben. Y'all have fun!!
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Ben,
I really admire your desire to be fair and to sacrifice your own chance to participate for points and prizes.... But..
Can you please tell us more about how the MDs and rules committee folks will have an advantage (or even a perceived advantage) at the matches? I must be missing something? With the distances given to all shooters, I can't think of any advantages a MD or committee member might have.
But, as a match director myself since 2007, I can think of a few disadvantages for the match directors competing at their own events.
One is being distracted by the needs of those attending.
Another is the physical labor setting and preparing for the match that wears out the MD. Another is dealing with cold lines, fixing targets etc during the match. Another is the mental worry about keeping the match running on time and dealing with complaints from competitors and the negative cash flow it's costing to make the match happen successfully.
Again, I'm sorry you got caught in a crossfire trying to do the right thing.... help us understand better your position of integrity.
Blessings,
Wayne Burns
Match Director
Air Gun Oregon/ Ashland Air Rifle Range
I really admire your desire to be fair and to sacrifice your own chance to participate for points and prizes.... But..
Can you please tell us more about how the MDs and rules committee folks will have an advantage (or even a perceived advantage) at the matches? I must be missing something? With the distances given to all shooters, I can't think of any advantages a MD or committee member might have.
But, as a match director myself since 2007, I can think of a few disadvantages for the match directors competing at their own events.
One is being distracted by the needs of those attending.
Another is the physical labor setting and preparing for the match that wears out the MD. Another is dealing with cold lines, fixing targets etc during the match. Another is the mental worry about keeping the match running on time and dealing with complaints from competitors and the negative cash flow it's costing to make the match happen successfully.
Again, I'm sorry you got caught in a crossfire trying to do the right thing.... help us understand better your position of integrity.
Blessings,
Wayne Burns
Match Director
Air Gun Oregon/ Ashland Air Rifle Range
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First off, I've got nothing against Mike Bricker, in fact I consider him a friend.
Grand Prix Match DIrectors involved in the discussion about the creation of the the Grand Prix? I'm totally on board there, those are the people actually doing the work and putting on the match.
AOA owners/employees involved in the discussion about the creation of the Grand Prix? Also, totally on board there. They are supplying the prize money, which, over 4 GPs, is a substantial sum.
But I can't reconcile the "why" of a regular shooter (that is not in one of the aforementioned leadership positions) getting to steer the ship. The name here is Mike Bricker. I'd still be asking the same question if it was any other name. If regular shooters get a say than have a vote and let ALL the regular shooters get to have input as well (the vote system is coincidentally how Ben has managed XFT since the beginning).
Steve mentioned "VIPs in the process of the GP series." To think that any particular shooter is a VIP is simply wrong. Nobody is any more or less important than anyone else.
Bobby pointed out that Bricker is a heck of a shooter, no dispute there. He's also one of few (I'd guess single digits) people gunning for the win, ie probably planning on making it to most if not all of the GP matches. I think what Ben is wanting to avoid are the optics of the one guy with questionable involvement in the process being the same guy who wins the GP series. Not a good look.
Perhaps Derrick summed it up best when he said, "Regardless, it's your match to run, Ben. Y'all have fun!!"
Edit: I'm open to changing my stance on Mike's involvement if somebody can come up with a plausible reason for him to have a seat at that table.
Grand Prix Match DIrectors involved in the discussion about the creation of the the Grand Prix? I'm totally on board there, those are the people actually doing the work and putting on the match.
AOA owners/employees involved in the discussion about the creation of the Grand Prix? Also, totally on board there. They are supplying the prize money, which, over 4 GPs, is a substantial sum.
But I can't reconcile the "why" of a regular shooter (that is not in one of the aforementioned leadership positions) getting to steer the ship. The name here is Mike Bricker. I'd still be asking the same question if it was any other name. If regular shooters get a say than have a vote and let ALL the regular shooters get to have input as well (the vote system is coincidentally how Ben has managed XFT since the beginning).
Steve mentioned "VIPs in the process of the GP series." To think that any particular shooter is a VIP is simply wrong. Nobody is any more or less important than anyone else.
Bobby pointed out that Bricker is a heck of a shooter, no dispute there. He's also one of few (I'd guess single digits) people gunning for the win, ie probably planning on making it to most if not all of the GP matches. I think what Ben is wanting to avoid are the optics of the one guy with questionable involvement in the process being the same guy who wins the GP series. Not a good look.
Perhaps Derrick summed it up best when he said, "Regardless, it's your match to run, Ben. Y'all have fun!!"
Edit: I'm open to changing my stance on Mike's involvement if somebody can come up with a plausible reason for him to have a seat at that table.
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Every sports rules organization has at least one players rep. That is Mike Bricker’s function on the EFT Executive Committee.
These players are not excluded, but Mike is???
Tony P
These players are not excluded, but Mike is???
Tony P
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MIke is not being excluded.
Ben clarified earlier today that he will get his participation point for being present at a GP and is eligible for prizes.
The 6 discretionary GP points awarded by the MD at each Grand Prix are what Ben has said Mike and himself (Ben) won't be receiving at the Phoenix XFT Grand Prix.
Players reps in sports are typically voted into their position right?
Ben clarified earlier today that he will get his participation point for being present at a GP and is eligible for prizes.
The 6 discretionary GP points awarded by the MD at each Grand Prix are what Ben has said Mike and himself (Ben) won't be receiving at the Phoenix XFT Grand Prix.
Players reps in sports are typically voted into their position right?
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Cole, You said your mind could be changed with plausible reason. To my knowledge, Mike was never told in advance that if he gave input he would be excluded. You and many others pointed out that Mike is a competitive player. Why would Mike EVER exclude himself if he was told they would go this route. The way it appears is that this is an underhanded way to exclude a person that has dedication and heart to put his all into it. I myself would rather beat him knowing I did it in competition. Not by ruling him out because you assume others may perceive it unfairly. Is this simply a ploy to eliminate a “heck of a shooter that is gunning for the win” in advance? In my eyes it appears so.
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