Nope, I'm not in the running. I don't shoot on Sundays so that keeps me from shooting half of the only GP I was even considering attending. I also still work and have no intention of traveling to Oregon and Texas and Utah.
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Events XFT Phoenix 2022 Grand Prix! Ongoing post with prizes, details, discussion, etc.
- Thread starter Franklink
- Start date
Nope, I'm not in the running. I don't shoot on Sundays so that keeps me from shooting half of the only GP I was even considering attending. I also still work and have no intention of traveling to Oregon and Texas and Utah.
Just got notice slug package from NSA is in and also pics of the Discount cards. I suspect they might become trading cards.
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Like a few of the other posters here I have also personally witnessed Ben’s exemplary commitment in developing the monthly XFT matches in Arizona and commend his efforts to promote high ethical standards. I think he made an unpopular (to some) but not unthinkable or unreasonable call that obliterates any whiff of gaming or conflicts of interest.
My hunch is the XFT GP is probably running somewhat by an informal seat of the pants process to get it quickly going this year and the thought of how it might appear allowing special access for one shooter/team and not others in the decision process was probably not even on the radar for most involved. The XFT GP board if they haven’t yet, need to formalize with all that typically goes with that - defining decision/voting processes, voting membership, use of technical advisors, etc.
My 1.8 cents…(10% inflation subtracted)
My hunch is the XFT GP is probably running somewhat by an informal seat of the pants process to get it quickly going this year and the thought of how it might appear allowing special access for one shooter/team and not others in the decision process was probably not even on the radar for most involved. The XFT GP board if they haven’t yet, need to formalize with all that typically goes with that - defining decision/voting processes, voting membership, use of technical advisors, etc.
My 1.8 cents…(10% inflation subtracted)
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Thank you,
Aimright for your kind words. I have heard personally the negative and sometimes derogatory comments during, and after EBR, RMAC, and even local matches. I have also been a critic myself. I am very new at this while also being very passionate about it. So this venue has already had some very questionable episodes. I have been present to hear more than a few say. "What event has ever let a person that didn't qualify shoot in place of someone that did"? Well, I think part of the issue is if we as a group do not discuss and resolve these episodes as they happen they snowball over time. So that is why I am trying to get out ahead of bad optics. I like Franklink consider Mike my friend, I would not and have not singled him out. There are many people on the ineligible list including myself. There is going to be growing pains however if they make for a better product I think it is worth it. I do pretty well at XFT, AAFTA, and benchrest I certainly am not jumping up and down about this. I also will before next year's GP have a vote, which I personally will vote against keeping the rule. The perception that because it is posted on AGN and EVERYONE knows and understands is simply NOT true. So this rule will give the airgun community time to digest understand and even be aware there are GPs. The magnitude of the year endpoints and how the points help them. So I appreciate EVERYONE's input and especially their passion. This proves to me that this venue is a great one and hopefully will be huge in the future. So fairness, clarity, and transparency are super important IMO
Thank You
Aimright for your kind words. I have heard personally the negative and sometimes derogatory comments during, and after EBR, RMAC, and even local matches. I have also been a critic myself. I am very new at this while also being very passionate about it. So this venue has already had some very questionable episodes. I have been present to hear more than a few say. "What event has ever let a person that didn't qualify shoot in place of someone that did"? Well, I think part of the issue is if we as a group do not discuss and resolve these episodes as they happen they snowball over time. So that is why I am trying to get out ahead of bad optics. I like Franklink consider Mike my friend, I would not and have not singled him out. There are many people on the ineligible list including myself. There is going to be growing pains however if they make for a better product I think it is worth it. I do pretty well at XFT, AAFTA, and benchrest I certainly am not jumping up and down about this. I also will before next year's GP have a vote, which I personally will vote against keeping the rule. The perception that because it is posted on AGN and EVERYONE knows and understands is simply NOT true. So this rule will give the airgun community time to digest understand and even be aware there are GPs. The magnitude of the year endpoints and how the points help them. So I appreciate EVERYONE's input and especially their passion. This proves to me that this venue is a great one and hopefully will be huge in the future. So fairness, clarity, and transparency are super important IMO
Thank You
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Having been directly and indirectly involved in AAFTA field target evolution and rules-making, and now being very directly involved in the early evolution and growing pains of Extreme Field Target, I'm gonna take a stab at wrapping up this (public) thread while hoping to not shoot myself in the foot in that attempt... even though (intellectually) I'm obviously bringing a knife to a gunfight!
I now (finally) feel I not only see but understand everyone's position(s); a major accomplishment for one who often admits his extreme allergy to puzzles. And unlike our two-party political system where I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly hold some (many) of the positions of one party, I not only understand the conflicting positions in this thread, but understand how everyone involved can have and hold their respective positions. I am happy, and more than a little relieved, to see the opposing sides, apparently weary of the battle(s), also apparently working their ways toward some level or semblence of detente. Oh happy day!
Unfortunately I feel compelled to bear the bad news. This won't be last EFT growing pain; there WILL be more.
That predicted, and having so far avoided joining this particular fray, I'll now take aforementioned stab at wrapping up this (public) thread.
Boys, it's time to lay down your arms! More specifically, on this forum.
If I accomplish nothing more in EFT than succeeding in keeping EFT battles off this forum, then that would be possibly the greatest accomplishment of my life; for I've lived the excruciation of witnessing first-hand the damage can be done to my beloved airgun passion by mountains of (AAFTA) dirty laundry stinking up innocent forum bystanders; most of whom didn't need to see it.
EFT Powers That Be, let's please keep the dirty laundry to ourselves.
Respect,
Ron
I now (finally) feel I not only see but understand everyone's position(s); a major accomplishment for one who often admits his extreme allergy to puzzles. And unlike our two-party political system where I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly hold some (many) of the positions of one party, I not only understand the conflicting positions in this thread, but understand how everyone involved can have and hold their respective positions. I am happy, and more than a little relieved, to see the opposing sides, apparently weary of the battle(s), also apparently working their ways toward some level or semblence of detente. Oh happy day!
Unfortunately I feel compelled to bear the bad news. This won't be last EFT growing pain; there WILL be more.
That predicted, and having so far avoided joining this particular fray, I'll now take aforementioned stab at wrapping up this (public) thread.
Boys, it's time to lay down your arms! More specifically, on this forum.
If I accomplish nothing more in EFT than succeeding in keeping EFT battles off this forum, then that would be possibly the greatest accomplishment of my life; for I've lived the excruciation of witnessing first-hand the damage can be done to my beloved airgun passion by mountains of (AAFTA) dirty laundry stinking up innocent forum bystanders; most of whom didn't need to see it.
EFT Powers That Be, let's please keep the dirty laundry to ourselves.
Respect,
Ron
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Well…lets talk about weather for the meet then! Really nice weather in my book as a local, but maybe a tad warm for those coming from the cooler climates. Pulling up the National Weather point forecast for the Phoenix Rod and Gun Club (see screenshot below) shows we will see the mid to upper 80’s for both days during most of the match, with maybe hitting the low 90’s by the last couple of lanes, and mostly sunny. Surface winds are predicted to be light around 5-7 mph both days, coming mostly out of the E and SE (the arrow looking barbs under the wind mph line on the wind graph designates wind direction). I would expect the heating on the hills from the sun will produce some fairly strong local uphill slope winds that will fight with these predicted southeasterly 5 mph surface winds, making our wind reading at the meet interesting.
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A lot has been said and a lot has happened, both privately and publicly, and in short, the drama sucks the fun right out of all of it. I really enjoy airguns and I really enjoy airgun friends and I really enjoy FRIENDLY competition. I even enjoy seeing those airgun friends shoot well, even if it means getting "beat" by them. I do not enjoy the strife currently occurring, to the point of making me consider selling everything off and taking up.....knitting or something.
The drama is about the GP points. I already said that I have no intention of traveling for the points or in general acquiring them so the arguments I made were in proxy for those that might be interested in the points, either now or in the future, Being somewhat privy to many details that the majority are not, I felt it important to speak up for the integrity of the Grand Prix series. it would be nice if being the GP Champion actually means something to those of us who shot, shoot, or will shoot extreme ft matches.
The suggestion to sweep inconvenient facts under the rug does not help the majority, nor does it help maintain the integrity of the GP series.
With the general interest of the average, non VIP, GP point-seeking shooters in mind, I suggest an effort be made for greater transparency.
In a prior heated discussion about the rules for monthly extreme FT matches (prior to this talk of the GP) I stated that the rules should simply favor the most prepared shooter to be the winner. I would hope that same simple premise can be extended to the GP series. I also hope that when all is said and done, the GP series falls on the competition side of the fence it is currently straddling and not the business endeavor side.
On a more positive note, it looks like those attending will have great shooting conditions.
The drama is about the GP points. I already said that I have no intention of traveling for the points or in general acquiring them so the arguments I made were in proxy for those that might be interested in the points, either now or in the future, Being somewhat privy to many details that the majority are not, I felt it important to speak up for the integrity of the Grand Prix series. it would be nice if being the GP Champion actually means something to those of us who shot, shoot, or will shoot extreme ft matches.
The suggestion to sweep inconvenient facts under the rug does not help the majority, nor does it help maintain the integrity of the GP series.
With the general interest of the average, non VIP, GP point-seeking shooters in mind, I suggest an effort be made for greater transparency.
In a prior heated discussion about the rules for monthly extreme FT matches (prior to this talk of the GP) I stated that the rules should simply favor the most prepared shooter to be the winner. I would hope that same simple premise can be extended to the GP series. I also hope that when all is said and done, the GP series falls on the competition side of the fence it is currently straddling and not the business endeavor side.
On a more positive note, it looks like those attending will have great shooting conditions.
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It might be a good idea to add some explanation to the EFT GP series web site. What is there now is a general explanation, but a "Detail" section where it spells out exactly how it works might help in the name of transparency as Cole mentions above.
So here it is as best I can explain it:
- Participation in your first GP event will get you one GP point. Any subsequent GP events that you shoot in earns you 1/2 point each.
- Each GP event has SIX points to "divvy up" between the top finishers. The Match Director for each event determines how many points are awarded to each finishing position. So it could be 3 -2 -1 for the top three, or it could be 2 -2 -2 for the top three, or even something different.
- No matter how many events a shooter participates in, the MAXIMUM number of points that can be earned for the calendar GP year is SIX.
- The total number of points earned, not to exceed six, will be added to the EBR EFT score (for GP series only and doesn't affect the "normal" EBR EFT placing and prizes) to determine the National EFT Champion. A separate prize pool is being discussed for the EFT GP National Championship series...
EXAMPLES:
Example 1: A shooter goes to the AZ event and finishes 2nd. He gets one point for participation, and in this case, two points for finishing second. So unless he shoots in additional events, he carries forward 3 points to the EBR EFT final.
Example 2: A shooter goes to the AZ event, and finishes out of the top 3. He gets one participation point. He then goes to the Oregon event, and finishes 3rd (OR does 3 -2- 1 for points) and earns 1 point plus 1/2 participation point. So he carries 2 1/2 points to the EBR EFT.
Example 3: A shooter goes to the OR event and finishes out of the top 3. He earns 1 participation point. He then goes to TX and wins. He gets 3 points for winning and 1/2 participation points. He takes 4 1/2 points to the EBR EFT.
I've had people call me and they haven't understood exactly how it works. I feel that this will help everyone to understand... FYI, the "ineligible list" applies to the AZ event only...The “rule” that Ben discusses above is NOT an EFT GP rule, but one implemented separately by him only for the AZ XFT GP.
So here it is as best I can explain it:
- Participation in your first GP event will get you one GP point. Any subsequent GP events that you shoot in earns you 1/2 point each.
- Each GP event has SIX points to "divvy up" between the top finishers. The Match Director for each event determines how many points are awarded to each finishing position. So it could be 3 -2 -1 for the top three, or it could be 2 -2 -2 for the top three, or even something different.
- No matter how many events a shooter participates in, the MAXIMUM number of points that can be earned for the calendar GP year is SIX.
- The total number of points earned, not to exceed six, will be added to the EBR EFT score (for GP series only and doesn't affect the "normal" EBR EFT placing and prizes) to determine the National EFT Champion. A separate prize pool is being discussed for the EFT GP National Championship series...
EXAMPLES:
Example 1: A shooter goes to the AZ event and finishes 2nd. He gets one point for participation, and in this case, two points for finishing second. So unless he shoots in additional events, he carries forward 3 points to the EBR EFT final.
Example 2: A shooter goes to the AZ event, and finishes out of the top 3. He gets one participation point. He then goes to the Oregon event, and finishes 3rd (OR does 3 -2- 1 for points) and earns 1 point plus 1/2 participation point. So he carries 2 1/2 points to the EBR EFT.
Example 3: A shooter goes to the OR event and finishes out of the top 3. He earns 1 participation point. He then goes to TX and wins. He gets 3 points for winning and 1/2 participation points. He takes 4 1/2 points to the EBR EFT.
I've had people call me and they haven't understood exactly how it works. I feel that this will help everyone to understand... FYI, the "ineligible list" applies to the AZ event only...The “rule” that Ben discusses above is NOT an EFT GP rule, but one implemented separately by him only for the AZ XFT GP.
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AOA gift cards for some of you lucky PHX XFT Grand Prix shooters.
Some big discounts in there, thanks AOA.
Kinda agree with Ben's assessment, they're likely to be trading cards as whoever gets them swaps to fulfill equipment wants and needs.
Some big discounts in there, thanks AOA.
Kinda agree with Ben's assessment, they're likely to be trading cards as whoever gets them swaps to fulfill equipment wants and needs.
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"The suggestion to sweep inconvenient facts under the rug does not help the majority, nor does it help maintain the integrity of the GP series."
Whether that statement was directed at me, whether directly, indirectly, or in ricochet, doesn't really matter; I feel compelled to respond. I wasn't trying to sweep anything under the rug with my peace-making effort.. Rather, I was hoping to avoid continuing regurgitations of inconvenient facts.
Apparently it didn't work. That's okay; I tried.
Since I don't intend to take either side anyway, I'll grab a beer and spectate the mutually-assured destruction. I realize this is a sick thing to say, but in a weird way a nuclear-bomb mushroom cloud is beautiful (if One considers only the magnitude of unfathomable energy released to produce it, rather the effects on Humanity). ;-)
Peace out, Y'all! Or not...
Whether that statement was directed at me, whether directly, indirectly, or in ricochet, doesn't really matter; I feel compelled to respond. I wasn't trying to sweep anything under the rug with my peace-making effort.. Rather, I was hoping to avoid continuing regurgitations of inconvenient facts.
Apparently it didn't work. That's okay; I tried.
Since I don't intend to take either side anyway, I'll grab a beer and spectate the mutually-assured destruction. I realize this is a sick thing to say, but in a weird way a nuclear-bomb mushroom cloud is beautiful (if One considers only the magnitude of unfathomable energy released to produce it, rather the effects on Humanity). ;-)
Peace out, Y'all! Or not...
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Ron,
I wasn't trying to further stir the pot with that post, rather, was hoping it could be somewhat of a conclusion and suggestion for the future, in an attempt to avoid further dust-ups. I'll try again and attempt to be more to the point.
The gist of what I was trying to say is the following: Decisions were made without the knowledge or involvement or input of any regular shooters. Perhaps future transparency would be a more wise choice. (And there is no insinuation of nefarious intent behind those secretive actions, just that they happened).
In other words, through greater transparency the "Executive GP Committee" can help to "avoid even the appearance of evil".
I wasn't trying to further stir the pot with that post, rather, was hoping it could be somewhat of a conclusion and suggestion for the future, in an attempt to avoid further dust-ups. I'll try again and attempt to be more to the point.
The gist of what I was trying to say is the following: Decisions were made without the knowledge or involvement or input of any regular shooters. Perhaps future transparency would be a more wise choice. (And there is no insinuation of nefarious intent behind those secretive actions, just that they happened).
In other words, through greater transparency the "Executive GP Committee" can help to "avoid even the appearance of evil".
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Well for Barbara and I, we can't wait to get there Saturday, laugh with new friends, laugh at myself of course, and have a fun day of shooting....All the other 
can dry up and blow in the Phoenix wind for all I care. If concerns can't be said in person or over a phone call then all this will continue....Voice inflection, body language, and in person demeanor can't be judged behind a keyboard.
As a wise person once said, "Melowness is the key to tranquility" Wait I say that
Tony P.
can dry up and blow in the Phoenix wind for all I care. If concerns can't be said in person or over a phone call then all this will continue....Voice inflection, body language, and in person demeanor can't be judged behind a keyboard. As a wise person once said, "Melowness is the key to tranquility" Wait I say that
Tony P.
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One of the shooters sent me these pro tips for reading the wind at PRGC.
I got a kick out of it and thought the rest of gen pop would too.
I got a kick out of it and thought the rest of gen pop would too.
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Had some constructive discussion with the rep of the "Grand Prix Series Executive Committee" this evening.
As confirmed by the committee rep, Aimright was spot on in his assumptions that it was quite rushed to try to get it all together for the 2022 year. Committee rep is open to the idea of involving ALL the shooters in the decision making process and using the 2022 cycle as a testbed for making improvements for the 2023 series. Committee rep told me they plan on publicly gathering feedback from shooters and match directors from here on out. Regular shooters can expect to see greater transparency and a voice in the decision making process. And that is a two-way street, when we're given the opportunity to contribute and make suggestions, WE NEED TO DO SO.
I consider all of that great news and immense progress. I'm now much more optimistic about the future of the Extreme FT Grand Prix series, knowing that the average Joe will get to share their thoughts as part of the collective of shooters and that those thoughts and suggestions will shape the GP to be a reputable endeavor.
Regardless of what becomes of the GP series, Phoenix XFT will continue to put on the long range/high power field target matches that we've all been enjoying.
Now, as Ron said, let's get back to the reason for all of this, SHOOTING!
As confirmed by the committee rep, Aimright was spot on in his assumptions that it was quite rushed to try to get it all together for the 2022 year. Committee rep is open to the idea of involving ALL the shooters in the decision making process and using the 2022 cycle as a testbed for making improvements for the 2023 series. Committee rep told me they plan on publicly gathering feedback from shooters and match directors from here on out. Regular shooters can expect to see greater transparency and a voice in the decision making process. And that is a two-way street, when we're given the opportunity to contribute and make suggestions, WE NEED TO DO SO.
I consider all of that great news and immense progress. I'm now much more optimistic about the future of the Extreme FT Grand Prix series, knowing that the average Joe will get to share their thoughts as part of the collective of shooters and that those thoughts and suggestions will shape the GP to be a reputable endeavor.
Regardless of what becomes of the GP series, Phoenix XFT will continue to put on the long range/high power field target matches that we've all been enjoying.
Now, as Ron said, let's get back to the reason for all of this, SHOOTING!
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I’m with Tony, I am really excited to shoot this weekend. This is my favorite event and even though I don’t have the ability to travel much I’m excited about the GP series as well. I appreciate the hard work that is put in to by all and I understand they are attempting to make it as fair as possible. Not everyone will be happy with the decisions but my new favorite saying “suck it up buttercup”
As far as the weather goes it will be hot. My report is telling me almost 100. Please make sure you hydrate well several days before the match during the match, have sunscreen, big hats and maybe even an umbrella for some shade when you’re not shooting.
Those that are traveling here, safe travels.
As far as the weather goes it will be hot. My report is telling me almost 100. Please make sure you hydrate well several days before the match during the match, have sunscreen, big hats and maybe even an umbrella for some shade when you’re not shooting.
Those that are traveling here, safe travels.
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MD's would you please post the distances for each lane so we can write down our dope in advance?
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Here you go Steve, and anyone else who wants them for their dope sheets.
Ben JUST sent it to me, sounds like they were busy working on the course most of today.
Call or text Ben if you missed the online registration but still want to come play tomorrow. 480-694-6973
Ben JUST sent it to me, sounds like they were busy working on the course most of today.
Call or text Ben if you missed the online registration but still want to come play tomorrow. 480-694-6973
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Unofficial scores from the first day. Just a quick skim through the photos of score cards I took for the eventual match write up. Final/official standings will be determined by actual physical score cards from day 1 and day 2 after all shooters complete the course on Sunday.
John B. 38
Wes C. 36
Peykan B. 36
Martin M. 36
Bobby C. 35
Ben S. 35
Barb P. 35
Tony P. 33
Cole R. 32
Sandy C. 31
Steve M. 30
Gabe V. 29
Carl F. 27
Lauren P. 27
Larry P. 23
Scott H. 22
Van T. 21
Bob C. 19
Mike C. 16
Steve K. 15
Barry D. 13
Allen S. 13
Dan L. 12
Quite a few shooters still have a decent chance to be in the
, just put together a good day (or another good day) tomorrow. Good luck to all.
John B. 38
Wes C. 36
Peykan B. 36
Martin M. 36
Bobby C. 35
Ben S. 35
Barb P. 35
Tony P. 33
Cole R. 32
Sandy C. 31
Steve M. 30
Gabe V. 29
Carl F. 27
Lauren P. 27
Larry P. 23
Scott H. 22
Van T. 21
Bob C. 19
Mike C. 16
Steve K. 15
Barry D. 13
Allen S. 13
Dan L. 12
Quite a few shooters still have a decent chance to be in the
, just put together a good day (or another good day) tomorrow. Good luck to all. Upvote 0
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