Words of Wisdom - shared by Utah Airguns

Airgun Nation

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 24, 2020
744
1,778
Colorado, United States
Hey Airgunners read this very closely…

Your gun can vary in accuracy and it doesn’t mean your gun is broken or out of tune. You can limit bad accuracy by being fundamentally sound in your shooting but even with everything perfect you can still have really good results and some that aren’t so good. Practice good shooting and get good results.

Screen Shot 2022-05-28 at 10.59.32 AM.1653753584.png




Bryan Litz Ballistics

A dialogue on dispersion

A Beginner and a Guru meet on the range one day...

Beginner: "I just shot a 1/4 MOA 5-shot group!" (posts pic on facebook #AllDayLong)

Guru: "My guess; it's a 1/2 MOA rifle at best."

Beginner: "How do you figure?"

Guru: "Well, your excitement over this 1/4 MOA group means it's better than your average. A rare sample, probably a 1-in-20 group. Since dispersion is random, you'll shoot a wide range of group sizes. Some will be small (lucky) and others will be bigger (unlucky)."

Beginner: "I make my own luck. I mean, I just shot a 1/4 MOA group with this rifle and load, so that shows me the potential of how good it can be if I do my part."

Guru: "That's not how dispersion works."

Beginner: "What do you mean?"

Guru: "Well, if you shoot enough groups with enough different rifles/ammo, you'll see that the Standard Deviation (SD) in 5-shot group size is about 30% from 22 Rimfire up thru 375 cal. This means that even when everything about the rifle/ammo/shooter is the same, 2/3's of your groups will be +/- 30% from your average, and 19/20 of your groups will be +/- 60% from your average."

Beginner: "That sounds like BS."

Guru: "It's not. I'll show you. Let's assume that 1/4 MOA group you just fired is a 1-in-20 'good/lucky' group. That would put it 2 SD's from your average. If .25 MOA is two SD's from your average, and SD is 30% of the average, then I'm guessing your average group size is closer to 5/8 MOA ( .25 = (X - 2*.3*X) ... X = .25/.4 = .625 )."

Beginner: "Well, yea, I guess that is close to what the rifle groups on average. But I thought the bigger groups were due to something I'm doing wrong."

Guru: "It could be, and you should definitely keep paying attention to fundamentals and consistent shot execution. However, even if you were the perfect shooter, always shooting from a rock solid position, you would still see a wide range in group sizes. It goes the other way too. If your average group size is .625 MOA (5/8), then for every rare 'good' 1/4 MOA group you shoot, you're likely to also shoot a rare 'bad' group that would be 1 MOA."

Beginner: "How are you doing that math?"

Guru: "I'll take you thru it. 67% of your groups will be within +/- 1 SD from the average. So if your average is .625 MOA, then 2-out-of-3 of your groups will be between: .625 - .625*.3 = .438 MOA and .625 + .625*.3 = .813 MOA. Likewise, 95% of your groups will be within +/- 2 SD's from the average. This is from: .625 - 2*.625*.3 = .25 MOA to .625 + 2*.625*.3 = 1 MOA. In summary, for an average group size of .625 MOA (5/8 MOA), you will have:

2/3's of your groups between .438 MOA and .813 MOA, and

19/20 of your groups between .25 MOA and 1 MOA."

Beginner: "Damn, that is about what this rifle does in the long run, I just never thought of it like this."

Guru: "When you understand how dispersion really works, it changes your approach to a lot of things, especially load development and any area where you're trying to improve precision by small amounts like .6, .5, .4 MOA. When you realize that a precision rifle system can produce such a wide range of group sizes naturally, you will make better decisions about load development, handloading, etc. For example, if you shoot a 1 MOA group later today, you won't go home and cut your wrists, or change everything about your handloading because you shot a 'bad' group. Instead, you'll understand that .25 MOA and 1 MOA are both samples from the same population with an average of .625 MOA (5/8), and an SD of 30%."

Beginner: "That actually makes a lot of sense. So if my average group is 5/8 MOA, that means that 1/2 the groups I shoot will be bigger than 5/8's, and 1/2 will be smaller, right?"

Guru: "Approximately, yes."

Beginner: "Cool! Thanks man, I actually feel a lot better about this understanding than before when I thought I was just 'doing my part', not really knowing what part I was doing that mattered."

Guru: "HA! I know what you mean, we've all been there."

-end of dialogue-

Follow this page for more group discussions

www.thescienceofaccuracy.com
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ezana4CE
Bryan Litz is a wealth of information for all things ballistics. His books are essential reading if you like to shoot long range. Although not necessarily “fun reading” for most, they are packed with info! They are fairly expensive books but can also be downloaded on Amazon much more cheaply…Ballistics for Long Range Shooting, Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting, Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting and Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets. 

Because of the popularity of airguns, airgun slugs and long range shooting, the word is that Bryan and his colleagues at Applied Ballistics are going to be doing testing with airguns and airgun slugs to help us understand airgun/slug ballistics better. 
Stoti
 
I love to see big brains cracking away at airguns these days. I read some of their work when I want my brain to hurt. Everything from valving concepts to slug and barrel design, all pushing our niche forward. Powder burners have had an abundance of brain power poured into them. I love to see airguns catching up. Thanks, big brains, and I hope airgun projectiles enjoy much of your attention. Maybe if we join in the page mentioned above it will help signal our interest in this type of R&D.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wWilliam
Applied ballistis and the folks work there are incredibly knowledgeable, I've done fair amount of research and they are awesome. However I realized the value of Applied ballistic software/app is for those custom curves or bullet profiles, since we air gunners mostly stay under transonic zone or our bullets don't go through the transonic zone from super sonic their software is overkill or not applicable because we don't use any of the bullets in their custom database. In other words no need to throw your money at Applied ballistic software for our airguns because it's no better than the $12 Strelok pro(Strelok actually has better user interface and more features)!!!

Of course if you want to support them then just buy the book because it's a must read for center fire long range as once up on time I was. Plus if they put custom pellet drop/bc curve in Applied Ballistic most air gunners will balk at the price anyways while it's not going to be any more accurate than Strelok.
 
Applied ballistis and the folks work there are incredibly knowledgeable, I've done fair amount of research and they are awesome. However I realized the value of Applied ballistic software/app is for those custom curves or bullet profiles, since we air gunners mostly stay under transonic zone or our bullets don't go through the transonic zone from super sonic their software is overkill or not applicable because we don't use any of the bullets in their custom database. In other words no need to throw your money at Applied ballistic software for our airguns because it's no better than the $12 Strelok pro(Strelok actually has better user interface and more features)!!!

Of course if you want to support them then just buy the book because it's a must read for center fire long range as once up on time I was. Plus if they put custom pellet drop/bc curve in Applied Ballistic most air gunners will balk at the price anyways while it's not going to be any more accurate than Strelok.

I bought their software for my other shooting habit four or five years ago. It is good but as you say, not really AG oriented at all. It does a fine job stretching the legs of my Model 70 Win in .270....
 
Hey Airgunners read this very closely…

Your gun can vary in accuracy and it doesn’t mean your gun is broken or out of tune. You can limit bad accuracy by being fundamentally sound in your shooting but even with everything perfect you can still have really good results and some that aren’t so good. Practice good shooting and get good results.

View attachment 211955



Bryan Litz Ballistics

A dialogue on dispersion

A Beginner and a Guru meet on the range one day...

Beginner: "I just shot a 1/4 MOA 5-shot group!" (posts pic on facebook #AllDayLong)

Guru: "My guess; it's a 1/2 MOA rifle at best."

Beginner: "How do you figure?"

Guru: "Well, your excitement over this 1/4 MOA group means it's better than your average. A rare sample, probably a 1-in-20 group. Since dispersion is random, you'll shoot a wide range of group sizes. Some will be small (lucky) and others will be bigger (unlucky)."

Beginner: "I make my own luck. I mean, I just shot a 1/4 MOA group with this rifle and load, so that shows me the potential of how good it can be if I do my part."

Guru: "That's not how dispersion works."

Beginner: "What do you mean?"

Guru: "Well, if you shoot enough groups with enough different rifles/ammo, you'll see that the Standard Deviation (SD) in 5-shot group size is about 30% from 22 Rimfire up thru 375 cal. This means that even when everything about the rifle/ammo/shooter is the same, 2/3's of your groups will be +/- 30% from your average, and 19/20 of your groups will be +/- 60% from your average."

Beginner: "That sounds like BS."

Guru: "It's not. I'll show you. Let's assume that 1/4 MOA group you just fired is a 1-in-20 'good/lucky' group. That would put it 2 SD's from your average. If .25 MOA is two SD's from your average, and SD is 30% of the average, then I'm guessing your average group size is closer to 5/8 MOA ( .25 = (X - 2*.3*X) ... X = .25/.4 = .625 )."

Beginner: "Well, yea, I guess that is close to what the rifle groups on average. But I thought the bigger groups were due to something I'm doing wrong."

Guru: "It could be, and you should definitely keep paying attention to fundamentals and consistent shot execution. However, even if you were the perfect shooter, always shooting from a rock solid position, you would still see a wide range in group sizes. It goes the other way too. If your average group size is .625 MOA (5/8), then for every rare 'good' 1/4 MOA group you shoot, you're likely to also shoot a rare 'bad' group that would be 1 MOA."

Beginner: "How are you doing that math?"

Guru: "I'll take you thru it. 67% of your groups will be within +/- 1 SD from the average. So if your average is .625 MOA, then 2-out-of-3 of your groups will be between: .625 - .625*.3 = .438 MOA and .625 + .625*.3 = .813 MOA. Likewise, 95% of your groups will be within +/- 2 SD's from the average. This is from: .625 - 2*.625*.3 = .25 MOA to .625 + 2*.625*.3 = 1 MOA. In summary, for an average group size of .625 MOA (5/8 MOA), you will have:

2/3's of your groups between .438 MOA and .813 MOA, and

19/20 of your groups between .25 MOA and 1 MOA."

Beginner: "Damn, that is about what this rifle does in the long run, I just never thought of it like this."

Guru: "When you understand how dispersion really works, it changes your approach to a lot of things, especially load development and any area where you're trying to improve precision by small amounts like .6, .5, .4 MOA. When you realize that a precision rifle system can produce such a wide range of group sizes naturally, you will make better decisions about load development, handloading, etc. For example, if you shoot a 1 MOA group later today, you won't go home and cut your wrists, or change everything about your handloading because you shot a 'bad' group. Instead, you'll understand that .25 MOA and 1 MOA are both samples from the same population with an average of .625 MOA (5/8), and an SD of 30%."

Beginner: "That actually makes a lot of sense. So if my average group is 5/8 MOA, that means that 1/2 the groups I shoot will be bigger than 5/8's, and 1/2 will be smaller, right?"

Guru: "Approximately, yes."

Beginner: "Cool! Thanks man, I actually feel a lot better about this understanding than before when I thought I was just 'doing my part', not really knowing what part I was doing that mattered."

Guru: "HA! I know what you mean, we've all been there."

-end of dialogue-

Follow this page for more group discussions

www.thescienceofaccuracy.com
Fantastic write up.
 


Guru: "I'll take you thru it. 67% of your groups will be within +/- 1 SD …
I really like the explanation. I have looked into this same thing. Not that long ago I would have thought 67% to be correct. And it would be correct if we were talking about vertical dispersion only. The shot group is a two dimensional distribution (Rayleigh distribution). Assuming we had a symmetrical distribution, I think the correct value would be 39%, not 67%. That’s my understanding.

So instead of using the 67%-95%-99.7% rule for your examples, it would be 39%-86%-99%

 
Last edited: