Why not turning?

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Percula

Percula

Member
Sep 6, 2016
381
12
AZ
As recent posts have noted what many have known for a long time, pellets are inconsistent to say the least. I know there is a small part of the market that really wants high quality pellets that are consistent in shape, size, hardness and weight.

So just wondering why no know has stepped up to fill this niche market with pellets that are turned on a lathe instead of molded?

With the state of CNC equipment you should be able to produce very high quality pellets that are always going to be balanced on the spin axis. Very consistent and always the same size which should equal the same weight. No you would not be able to make a lot per hour per machine. There would be health/environmental concerns with lead dust/shavings.

I'd bet that most serious shooters would be willing to pay >$1 per pellet to have a bunch of pellets they didn't need to spend hours and hours messing with and still be left with doubts about how they will perform. You could even allow for some customization like head diameter, skirt diameter easily. 
 
I understand but if im gonna spend a buck a bullet im gonna shoot my powder burners. They can make better molds and have better quality control if they want to. I love jsb pellets but it seems that they are becoming a little inconsistent lately. Probably due to demand. If they begin to lose business that might change their tune but as of now they are the best imo. So until demand changes or someone else makes a better product i dont see big changes. I dont know who could afford that kind of lathe turning quality. It would take forever to make 1 tin.
 
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the idea is nice but where talking a can of 500 pellets for $500 ,the price is just to hi,, if those were the #s seems to me thats a big reason people are switching to air from powder,is cost and availability we all would love better made ecxactly made pellets ,,even a tin at 10cents =$50 idk it seems if there were money there it would already be being done,,
 
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After all is said and done, and all the expenses involved, I think you're a bit on the conservative side at $1 a pellet. 

However, I've heard this (closely related) topic being talked about before.... The rifles have advanced to a point where they are no longer the weakest link. The weakest link is now the ammunition that we shoot. This is an untapped area of (true) experimentation in the mass market. The only guys that really have the ability to alter the parameters of their ammo are the guys that cast their own. That's where this might be a feasible option for someone to do but, still only on a personal level. 
Tom
 
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"aa_limited"sadly it comes down to cost. and how about barrels with proper twist rate to make pellets with high bc fly straight
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The barrels we have now are great, there are no high BC pellets, not a one with a BC >=0.1. The highest BC I know of on a pellet is 0.08 of the H&N Piledriver.

It doesn't matter how good your barrel is if your pellet won't fly straight because its made poorly. Small indentations in the head will cause POI shifts that are significant to a bench rest shooters. Having a shirt that is a little out of shape will do the same. If the shirt isn't perfectly square to the axis it will do the same. If the spin balance is not perfect it will do the same. There is no barrel that will fix that.
 
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"Tominco"After all is said and done, and all the expenses involved, I think you're a bit on the conservative side at $1 a pellet. 

However, I've heard this (closely related) topic being talked about before.... The rifles have advanced to a point where they are no longer the weakest link. The weakest link is now the ammunition that we shoot. This is an untapped area of (true) experimentation in the mass market. The only guys that really have the ability to alter the parameters of their ammo are the guys that cast their own. That's where this might be a feasible option for someone to do but, still only on a personal level. 
Tom
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I started looking at it. You can gear up small CNC lathes for <$5K. Finding a source for lead rod to turn with the metal alloy you want I didn't do a lot of looking but I suspect that would be a problem area. Specifically in my past experience with manufacturing is "if you are willing to order enough (read pay enough) we'll get you anything you want". I talked to an experienced machinist who had some great ideas like having custom tooling made to shape instead of trying to cut a shape with conventional tooling.

The problem with casting your own or even turning your own is the single biggest event the ERB, specifically requires that you use "mass production diabolo pellets only". It's the only event that I know of that has a cash award. So even if you started selling them, you would be subject to the interruption of "mass production". 

JSB and the other manufacturers aren't going to improve their QA anytime soon, they have no real incentive to now. As long as they are selling all they make as soon as they make them (likely they are running with a significant back log of orders) they have no real incentive to change what they are doing. When the orders start falling significantly for a long enough period of time, the bean counters will take a back seat to the engineers and the quality will sky rocket till sales come back in line and they can't keep up then the quality will start falling again to meet demand. The only ways that will ever happen is if A) people stop buying them which is not going to happen or B) a new player supplants them, which is possible but unlikely.

Unfortunately the people that would buy turned pellets or be in the "I'm not buying that crap" is a pool of likely less than 300 people world wide. As such while for a small well run operation there is a significant opportunity no big concern is going to gear up to meet the high quality demand. 

I think the best bet we have is for JSB et al to start making a premium line for bench rest and FT shooters just like they do for 10m. Then they can start claiming advertising wins just like they do with Olympic gold metals won.
 
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I hear ya!, I've eluded to this in another post, concerning eccentricity & concentricity of pellets!, eccentricity is the the true killer in consistent accuracy?, once you have head dia., weight, shape, etc. that your barrel likes I feel some of those flyers that u scratch your head at might boil down to the odd pellets that are not truly spinning around there center axis?( but mind you this can also be influenced by not having the pellet loaded concentric to the bore?), but I'm not sure manufacturers need to turn them? Maybe better casting methods or even a forged pellet? Just thinking out loud, but will say that a manufacturer like JSB will probably never be convinced that the return on investment would ever be realized, Especially if you factor in time to produce!
 
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"nomojo65"I hear ya!, I've eluded to this in another post, concerning eccentricity & concentricity of pellets!, eccentricity is the the true killer in consistent accuracy?, once you have head dia., weight, shape, etc. that your barrel likes I feel some of those flyers that u scratch your head at might boil down to the odd pellets that are not truly spinning around there center axis?( but mind you this can also be influenced by not having the pellet loaded concentric to the bore?), but I'm not sure manufacturers need to turn them? Maybe better casting methods or even a forged pellet? Just thinking out loud, but will say that a manufacturer like JSB will probably never be convinced that the return on investment would ever be realized, Especially if you factor in time to produce!
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Today pellets are die stamped/pressed cold, they are not cast aka melted lead poured into a die/mold. There is a lot to it, lots of experience and engineering goes into it. Bottom line its the fastest and cheapest method to produce a "quality" pellet. The problem comes in that you have to do maintenance on the dies and the rest of the machines. Dies only last so long before they need to be rebuilt or replaced and dies are very expensive to make.

So the bean counters will get all up in arms when you have to shutdown a line for cleaning and maintenance. Their heads explode when you tell them that the line has to shutdown for days for new dies. Part of stamping any softer metal with a harder metal die is the dwell time, the longer the dwell time the more the softer metal will conform to the harder die. But its a trade off for the number of pieces you can stamp out per hour, which is where the bean counters step in and say we need X/hr or else! And that can result in lower than optimal dwell times. The softer metal will "rebound". You also run into alignment issues when you run too fast.

You could deal with the lower quality issues on the QA line, but then the end result is the same as running slower with equipment in tip top shape but now you have waste to deal with/recycle which costs money and we all know how bean counters hate to spend money!

I think our best hope is that JSB and the rest of the manufactures start a premium line for more than 10m pellets. 
 
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"Percula"
"nomojo65"I hear ya!, I've eluded to this in another post, concerning eccentricity & concentricity of pellets!, eccentricity is the the true killer in consistent accuracy?, once you have head dia., weight, shape, etc. that your barrel likes I feel some of those flyers that u scratch your head at might boil down to the odd pellets that are not truly spinning around there center axis?( but mind you this can also be influenced by not having the pellet loaded concentric to the bore?), but I'm not sure manufacturers need to turn them? Maybe better casting methods or even a forged pellet? Just thinking out loud, but will say that a manufacturer like JSB will probably never be convinced that the return on investment would ever be realized, Especially if you factor in time to produce!
Click to expand...
Today pellets are die stamped/pressed cold, they are not cast aka melted lead poured into a die/mold. There is a lot to it, lots of experience and engineering goes into it. Bottom line its the fastest and cheapest method to produce a "quality" pellet. The problem comes in that you have to do maintenance on the dies and the rest of the machines. Dies only last so long before they need to be rebuilt or replaced and dies are very expensive to make.

So the bean counters will get all up in arms when you have to shutdown a line for cleaning and maintenance. Their heads explode when you tell them that the line has to shutdown for days for new dies. Part of stamping any softer metal with a harder metal die is the dwell time, the longer the dwell time the more the softer metal will conform to the harder die. But its a trade off for the number of pieces you can stamp out per hour, which is where the bean counters step in and say we need X/hr or else! And that can result in lower than optimal dwell times. The softer metal will "rebound". You also run into alignment issues when you run too fast.

You could deal with the lower quality issues on the QA line, but then the end result is the same as running slower with equipment in tip top shape but now you have waste to deal with/recycle which costs money and we all know how bean counters hate to spend money!

I think our best hope is that JSB and the rest of the manufactures start a premium line for more than 10m pellets.
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That was a good explaination. Thank you. Does this imply that changing this "dwell time" might be a means to improve quality "incrementally". If they doubled the dwell time, do you think they could improve the product substantially? Could you or some other mechanical engineer quantify that? Once the vendor knows how much improvement they are going to see in the product they can set a price which reflects the new paradigm. I figure there are people who would pay $30.00 for a tin of 500 pellets (or even 250 pellets) if the improvement in CEP was measurable and consistent.
 
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Just a tip for anybody interested, you can watch 3 or 4 utube clips of H&N and other Manufacturers on how they produce their pellets! Not super detailed but you get the overall process, when I have alittle more time will educate myself more on this process!, I think when you see how they are produced quite honestly I'm actually impressed at the accuracy that can be achieved?, now not saying their isn't room for improvement... I'm on board with select runs or batches of 13.4gr. JSB's!,maybe giving you head dia. Options etc. and let the competition follow? We will all benefit from this!
 
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I've been on the side for a little while with projects and now health issues but there are some factors that I didn't see mentioned that should be.
First and foremost is health!!!
Lead is a heavy metal poison and turning produces some fine shavings and even a dust that could be inhaled and or absorbed into the body.
It's true that some firearm precision shooters do turn their own bullets but most cases these are not lead. 
Also
Extreme long range shooting is done with large caliber rifles... I could see turning done for some of the big bore airrifles but not so much the smaller ones.
As mentioned above stock is another factor you work can only be as good as the material your starting from. Because of the way lead is, it would be hard to find raw stock that does not have inconsistent weight and or alloy hardness.
As to swaging or pressing there is a popular online source that sells dies and complete kits even down to the air rifle and will cut dies for customers with odd caliber it's not cheap but for manual machines not completely out of the realm of personal use. He also sells raw stock that other precision shooters use.
Harbor Freight has a nice Midi lathe that is perfect for small projects at a price that can't be beat. That being said just like precision shooting or any other craftsmanship the final product is only as good as the person behind the machine. There is a lot of engineering behind turning. It's not something you can be doing in a few weeks 
 
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