Troy
I can call and talk to you and in about 5 minutes You will know how easy Nitrigen is to get and really cost effective there are lot of welding suppliers in your area
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Why dry air is so important
- Thread starter thammer
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Troy
I can call and talk to you and in about 5 minutes You will know how easy Nitrigen is to get and really cost effective there are lot of welding suppliers in your area
And RH (relative humidity) is a useless measure if you don't know the dew point.
Think of the dew point as the size of the water vessel. The RH is how full that vessel is.
So, a low dew point (smaller vessel) at 100% RH can have a LOT less moisture than a high dew point (larger vessel) at 50% RH. Etc, etc, etc...
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I'll be the first one to admit that relative humidity versus dew points are hard for me to wrap my brain around.......
But I know that when I try to fill tanks when my local humidity (as reported by NOAA/National Weather Service) is above around 25 or 30% that I'll have a couple mls of water in my high pressure/output filter and when I fill the tanks (using all the same set up) and the humidity is in the teens or single digits there will be absolutely zero moisture in the same output/high pressure filter media.
(Shoebox F10 with cheap pancake compressor as the first stage. Everything pushing uphill and roughly 100feet of low pressure hose before the F10, so lots of surface area for the condensation to collect before it gets to the F10. Always get some moisture out of the blow out valve on the pancake compressor reservoir, but less when the humidity is low than when it is high).
But I know that when I try to fill tanks when my local humidity (as reported by NOAA/National Weather Service) is above around 25 or 30% that I'll have a couple mls of water in my high pressure/output filter and when I fill the tanks (using all the same set up) and the humidity is in the teens or single digits there will be absolutely zero moisture in the same output/high pressure filter media.
(Shoebox F10 with cheap pancake compressor as the first stage. Everything pushing uphill and roughly 100feet of low pressure hose before the F10, so lots of surface area for the condensation to collect before it gets to the F10. Always get some moisture out of the blow out valve on the pancake compressor reservoir, but less when the humidity is low than when it is high).
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If you are filling from outside air (not conditioned as in a/c), then you will definitely have some moisture. That 100 feet of hose may be the problem as well, or it may be a help... I really don't know.
I never fill my gun outside or in the ambient outside air. Although A/C can't remove all of the moisture, it does help a lot.
Also, I only hand pump and don't have a compressor. Although I *could* shoot as many as 60 (maybe more) shots before the .177 Fortitude falls off of the regulator, I never let it get below 2500 psi. So pumping it back up is about 30+/- pumps to get it back to 3000 psi. That is usually about 30 shots or 3 magazines.
This makes it easier on me and the pump. It reduces the heating of the pump to a non-issue. I also think this helps to keep from having a lot of moisture buildup as the small amount that is accumulated is blown out while shooting.
At least that is my theory. In any case, I have had no issues with moisture problems in the PCP airguns I have owned. Fingers crossed! (smile)
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@thammer Do you know how the customer was filling his rifle and does he live some where there is a lot of humidity? Thanks in advance!
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If a person is going to go with a booster pump like the shoebox, you might as well get a big nitrogen tank and regulator.
One single mod to my compressor made a big difference in moisture output, low pressure line to water trap used to get hot enough to cause a burn. Put about 3 turns of tube between those two points and far less water in the cotton trap. Still need to add a dessicant or sieve trap on the input, but also need a bypass for silicone oil every few fills.
One single mod to my compressor made a big difference in moisture output, low pressure line to water trap used to get hot enough to cause a burn. Put about 3 turns of tube between those two points and far less water in the cotton trap. Still need to add a dessicant or sieve trap on the input, but also need a bypass for silicone oil every few fills.
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I’ve stated on this form before about the importance of dry air and actually had guys post asking me to prove moisture in a gun is a bad thing, DUH! Hopefully this thread will help save some headaches. Thanks to the OP for posting.
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If you have ever used even a low pressure compressor, you would realize how much water there is in the air. In humid weather you can get tablespoons of moisture from the bleed valve on the tank, and that's only 100psi in a 4 gal. tank. Think 4500 psi pushing out all the water in a 80 tank.
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I have alway use Clean Dry HPA in my all my PCP's..
The one new to me PCP I have that was a bit abused was a
Anschutz LP50 Long barrel...
Got for a Great Price..... but when I took apart(I do this to all my New PCP's) to check the seals and relube.
I found the the Previous owner was using a Stirrup Pump to charge the Cylinder.
Well the removed about 1 to 2 ozs of water from the gun and air cylinders.
So I had to do a full rebuild.. clean and polish..
She All well Now... I did have make my own Reg tester to do a Full Tune on Her!!
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against using a Pump!!
I used one when I first got into PCPs..
But do remember to release the moisture on a regular basis!!
I I would do it after every 25 strokes.... release the condensate...also let the pump cool down for 5 min.....
You can't beat having a good tank and compressor..or 2 compressors..
Stuart
The one new to me PCP I have that was a bit abused was a
Anschutz LP50 Long barrel...
Got for a Great Price..... but when I took apart(I do this to all my New PCP's) to check the seals and relube.
I found the the Previous owner was using a Stirrup Pump to charge the Cylinder.
Well the removed about 1 to 2 ozs of water from the gun and air cylinders.
So I had to do a full rebuild.. clean and polish..
She All well Now... I did have make my own Reg tester to do a Full Tune on Her!!
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against using a Pump!!
I used one when I first got into PCPs..
But do remember to release the moisture on a regular basis!!
I I would do it after every 25 strokes.... release the condensate...also let the pump cool down for 5 min.....
You can't beat having a good tank and compressor..or 2 compressors..
Stuart
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I never really thought about using nitrogen as the input to my shoebox. So basically I can rent a 2500psi nitrogen tank regulated down to 150psi, and fill my carbon tank via shoebox until the nitrogen gets close to...any thoughts on how low it will go?
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Wow …. I pump from a compressor but AGA guys recommended a large expensive changeable filter ….OmegA air filter …. So I attached it to the pumps already small inline cigarillo size filter now I’m double filtered. Hope it keeps things clean for a while. AGA. Said a quality large filter will pay for itsself in the long run. I trust they know what they talk about. Thanks AGA. Again
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Must be nice to have the dry heat vs humid heat. We have upper 90's % humidity in MO often and it sucks. Hottest summer ever and I am so glad the weather is starting to break for cooler less humid temps. I do put an oil/moisture filter on the out side of my hand pump and pulled it open to see how it looked. It is the larger size with a round filter and cigarette filter. I filled the extra space with dessicant and the cigaretter filter caught a lot of the gunk coming out of the pump. I only pump in the basement at home. My cheap china pump will have water drops on the inside first tube and not a spot of rust.
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Love fly fishing the San Jaun and Drinking the wines of the San jaun. I once lived in Pogosa springs. Never thought I’d leave
Love it there
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I live in the high desert, we get down in the teens in humidity. I use a Altaros booster powered and supplied from 3 CAT oil less compressors that I filter through 4 exterior dessicant filters and a final and 5th dessicant filter inside the Altaros cabinet. I do not use a water and oil trap type as my 3 shop compressors are oil less. Oddly enough I actually add some silicone oil to the Altaros booster now and then.
After filling my bottle, I breakdown the system, empty the dessicant material and replace it with dry material.
The air hose between the 3 shop compressors and the first 4 dessicant filters will have water dripping from it, even when the humitity is 15 to 20%.
On the filtered side with a 2 hour run, there is zero water, to the point that the water filter in the Altaros cabinet has never needed changing.
Point here, we make water compressing air, even in dry environments.
Now I have run my system with one, two and three CAT, Californiaairtooils, compressors They individually put out about 5.2 cfm at 140 psi I have them running at. As I added compressors to the system, my water manufacturing volume dropped. More compressors means less work for the individual compressor and less heat, and there in us the golden rule of pcp compressors, HEAT IS THE ENEMY OF AIR COMPESSORS.
I also modded each compressor by strapping a 12 inch modified floor fan to the top of each one, those CATS love those fans, as did the tech guys at CAT.
I used to have the system in my garage, but adding the third compressor meant that I ran out of dedicated electrical lines so I moved it all into the Kitchen where I had three 110 lines.
I used to live and pest on a vineyard in western Oregon, I used a Shoebox and cheap Harbor freight filters, basically a water feature. People fall off their bikes and drown in western Oregon. I shudder to think what that did to my 0cp’s.
Roachcreek
After filling my bottle, I breakdown the system, empty the dessicant material and replace it with dry material.
The air hose between the 3 shop compressors and the first 4 dessicant filters will have water dripping from it, even when the humitity is 15 to 20%.
On the filtered side with a 2 hour run, there is zero water, to the point that the water filter in the Altaros cabinet has never needed changing.
Point here, we make water compressing air, even in dry environments.
Now I have run my system with one, two and three CAT, Californiaairtooils, compressors They individually put out about 5.2 cfm at 140 psi I have them running at. As I added compressors to the system, my water manufacturing volume dropped. More compressors means less work for the individual compressor and less heat, and there in us the golden rule of pcp compressors, HEAT IS THE ENEMY OF AIR COMPESSORS.
I also modded each compressor by strapping a 12 inch modified floor fan to the top of each one, those CATS love those fans, as did the tech guys at CAT.
I used to have the system in my garage, but adding the third compressor meant that I ran out of dedicated electrical lines so I moved it all into the Kitchen where I had three 110 lines.
I used to live and pest on a vineyard in western Oregon, I used a Shoebox and cheap Harbor freight filters, basically a water feature. People fall off their bikes and drown in western Oregon. I shudder to think what that did to my 0cp’s.
Roachcreek
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I worked for ten years in a dive shop. One of my duties was to maintain the Mako 21 CFM compressor. We were required to send samples out quarterly for analysis for oil, carbon monoxide (CO) and moisture mainly, but they also checked other contaminants too.
In scuba, other than the two obvious oil and CO, water/moisture was the enemy, especially with deeper cold water diving.
When air is released from a high pressure to a low pressure, cooling is a by product. If there’s moisture in the air you can experience icing in some of the components of one of your two regulators and freeflow occurs. A freeflow won’t kill you but it means the end of a dive and hopefully you can safely make it back to the surface.
With an air rifle that moisture, which eventually accumulates into liquid. That liquid can mix with lube that was in the gun or because of minerals in that water will start corrosion on aluminum and brass parts. I’m semi sure manufacturers do not use steel for internal components, I’m betting on stainless steel. Regardless, moisture in any pneumatic system is never a good thing.
Pressurizing and drying air is never cheap or easy, regardless of the pressure you are pumping to.
Alkin, Bauer, Coltri, Alpha Carette, Tuxing, Ingersol, Mako etc all use post compression drying to produce the preferred grade E air by use of a dessicant drier called a molecular sieve. Fire stations, if they don’t have a dive team, will pump grade D air which allows a bit more moisture than grade E, but still dry enough for air guns.
Bottom line, a molecular sieve is the most practical way to remove mousture to the relative humidity that’s spec’d in grade D and E air.
Some people are lucky after years of hand pumping but for most upper tier PCP’s and the damage moisture can do it’s not worth it to me.
In scuba, other than the two obvious oil and CO, water/moisture was the enemy, especially with deeper cold water diving.
When air is released from a high pressure to a low pressure, cooling is a by product. If there’s moisture in the air you can experience icing in some of the components of one of your two regulators and freeflow occurs. A freeflow won’t kill you but it means the end of a dive and hopefully you can safely make it back to the surface.
With an air rifle that moisture, which eventually accumulates into liquid. That liquid can mix with lube that was in the gun or because of minerals in that water will start corrosion on aluminum and brass parts. I’m semi sure manufacturers do not use steel for internal components, I’m betting on stainless steel. Regardless, moisture in any pneumatic system is never a good thing.
Pressurizing and drying air is never cheap or easy, regardless of the pressure you are pumping to.
Alkin, Bauer, Coltri, Alpha Carette, Tuxing, Ingersol, Mako etc all use post compression drying to produce the preferred grade E air by use of a dessicant drier called a molecular sieve. Fire stations, if they don’t have a dive team, will pump grade D air which allows a bit more moisture than grade E, but still dry enough for air guns.
Bottom line, a molecular sieve is the most practical way to remove mousture to the relative humidity that’s spec’d in grade D and E air.
Some people are lucky after years of hand pumping but for most upper tier PCP’s and the damage moisture can do it’s not worth it to me.
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