Tuning Why do others not copy FX liner twist rates ?

[bigHUN]

FX is like Tesla of Airguns...

Exactly, and this why I like Mr Elon when he said he is not going to put patent on things:

"patents are cooking books and you put them on the table others have material to copy.... No, here it is ...I am putting my product on the table and if you want to copy just go ahead" (meaning let see how smart you are, can you copy at all?)

You can copy "a" part or product (talking about revers engineering) but you must know the big 3 F's (fit, form, function) the tolerance stuckups, the materials, what and where you need to pay attention, how to make it...and this line goes on for long.

Lets assume you've got money and you can afford to buy the same CNC what FX is using...you still need people who knows to operate it, to support it, and...you still have no F idea what material is the liner made of

 

[Franklink]

There is one big mistake in this thread focusing on a single piece price.

You need to estimate the cost of - let say fabricating 10K or 20K or 50K barrels over five years, estimate the cost of the entirety in the process, (R&D, machinery, materials, labour), the overhead cost accumulated over per say ten years....

Anybody with - metal manufacturing engineering background can chime in - the FX liners (actually everything all the parts that are connected to a barrel tube assembly) are not cheaper from ordinary any other better brand barrels.

A good quality rifled barrel you can make on a $5K gundrill, but for the FX liner the CNC (as a process) will cost many many times more plus the arms and legs and a liver and kidneys before you even make a first cut in a metal...To develop that kind of machine first you need a courage to burn a lot of money trying to proof you were right with the idea.

+1 on this.

First and foremost, airgun manufacturers are businesses. I'm sure the bean counters went through the analysis you've suggested. So, after the bean counters did their stuff, the final decision makers at FX decided to go with liners and huge advertising initiatives (YouTube) to drive home the fact that liners are better. The bean counters and final decision makers at HW, Daystate, Brocock, Taipan, AGT, Airforce, Kalibrgun, Edgun, RTI, etc etc etc, have thus far stuck with the decision to continue with real barrels in their airguns.

 

[Franklink]

FX is like Tesla of Airguns, always improving and always investing in newer technologies and machineries.

I'd say FX is more like Apple of airguns. Figure out a way to make products in a cheaper way than competitors, and at the same time spend enough marketing dollars to ensure that public opinion is swayed to think it's a better product. Sound business model, brilliant really. The method is working quite well for Apple, and for FX. 

 

[qball]

FX is like Tesla of Airguns, always improving and always investing in newer technologies and machineries.

I'd say FX is more like Apple of airguns. Figure out a way to make products in a cheaper way than competitors, and at the same time spend enough marketing dollars to ensure that public opinion is swayed to think it's a better product. Sound business model, brilliant really. The method is working quite well for Apple, and for FX.

And I’m ok with that too. Apple isn’t always the first to do something but when they put effort into it the results are superior. There are many reason I have a ton of Apple stuff after years of frustration with dealing with android. 

Same goes for FX. Sure they didn’t invent shooting slugs but they sure made it while lot easier and obtainable. Apple/FX both deliver what I want into my hands without hassle. And no, I don’t want a tank so built like tanks is not selling point for me. 

 

[mercado]

If the rest of the gun makers are a bit smart ..twist rates has no patent if you se the # they are using no special twist rates so any gun manufacturer in the interest of making some extra bucks .. could make some extra barrels with a different twist rates to sell...hope they do...now I will prefer they make normal barrels not liners..

 

[corny]

There is one big mistake in this thread focusing on a single piece price.

You need to estimate the cost of - let say fabricating 10K or 20K or 50K barrels over five years, estimate the cost of the entirety in the process, (R&D, machinery, materials, labour), the overhead cost accumulated over per say ten years....

Anybody with - metal manufacturing engineering background can chime in - the FX liners (actually everything all the parts that are connected to a barrel tube assembly) are not cheaper from ordinary any other better brand barrels.

A good quality rifled barrel you can make on a $5K gundrill, but for the FX liner the CNC (as a process) will cost many many times more plus the arms and legs and a liver and kidneys before you even make a first cut in a metal...To develop that kind of machine first you need a courage to burn a lot of money trying to proof you were right with the idea.

My guess is…the FX system is cheaper. And has the benefit of changing out liner. While keeping all the machine work. It basically 4 machine parts including that threaded tube. 

traditional barrels u either source the blanks or make them. But u still have to do the porting and crowning on each barrel. 

 

[Arash]

I don't think FX barrels are way better than traditional barrel in term of slug.

As you may know FX is not the first user of slug and Huben was the one that manufactured first pcp for slugs.

But now days the commercial more than others that you can shoot slug with liner barrel.

Don't get this wrong, they are make their guns to shoot slugs better than others, but it's not due to one barrel twist rate.

They put high plenum vol, extra long barrel, all kind of adjustability, high shoot count and different type of barrel twist rate. all of this make FX guns shoot different type of slugs.

 

[corny]

If the rest of the gun makers are a bit smart ..twist rates has no patent if you se the # they are using no special twist rates so any gun manufacturer in the interest of making some extra bucks .. could make some extra barrels with a different twist rates to sell...hope they do...now I will prefer they make normal barrels not liners..

FX barrel are developed around the ammo. That appears to be the main advantage FX has…quickly adapting to ammo. 


From my experience with attempting to shoot slugs with a number of different barrels. I quickly learned that barrel diameter and choke played a much bigger roll that ppl realize. 

the whole industry appears to be revolving around the .217 .218 dia slugs. I don’t know where that number originally came from. But if u look at the standard no choke lothar Walther blank. Bore dia is .221” 

No chance shooting industry standard slugs though that thing.

 

[corny]

I don't think FX barrels are way better than traditional barrel in term of slug.

As you may know FX is not the first user of slug and Huben was the one that manufactured first pcp for slugs.

But now days the commercial more than others that you can shoot slug with liner barrel.

Don't get this wrong, they are make their guns to shoot slugs better than others, but it's not due to one barrel twist rate.

They put high plenum vol, extra long barrel, all kind of adjustability, high shoot count and different type of barrel twist rate. all of this make FX guns shoot different type of slugs.

I’ve seen nothing come anywhere near fx liners at 150 200y with slugs? 


or is that just the fact that nobody is advertising it? 

 

[qball]

FX barrel are developed around the ammo. That appears to be the main advantage FX has…quickly adapting to ammo. 


From my experience with attempting to shoot slugs with a number of different barrels. I quickly learned that barrel diameter and choke played a much bigger roll that ppl realize. 

the whole industry appears to be revolving around the .217 .218 dia slugs. I don’t know where that number originally came from. But if u look at the standard no choke lothar Walther blank. Bore dia is .221” 

No chance shooting industry standard slugs though that thing.

100%!!!!



let’s all be honest here, there is no way a metal straw is better than a solid barrel. BUT FX’s fancy machines can be programmed to produce different diameter, land depth, twist rate, choke…..every single aspect of a barrel in matter of hours and go test. If tomorrow all slug manufacture decided to make slugs in .22 as supposed to .217, guess who can supply a barrel that can shoot in a few months? While many of us complain how long is our wait for FX products but when has anyone come out with a new barrel at all? 


FX’s barrel R&D is cut down to weeks and months as supposed to the years needed for traditional barrel making process where very thing is manual. Airgun industry simply doesn’t have the volume for LW and such to create the numbers of barrels the airgun industry need. Granted LW has many more barrels that could be used by Airguns but most airgun manufacture is too cheap to buy them and instead just use the same old barrel and call it good enough. Plus they already are sold out of everything so why spend money on R&D? That worked really well for Ford and GM for 30 years or more so why change? 




edit: if other manufactures are smart at all then they would call NSA and ask them to make slugs in size of 22 rim fire slugs then private label this slugs to sell. Pick a barrel usinf 22 LW/CZ barrel and done! Just tell everyone it won’t shoot pellet at all and make money on both slugs and guns/barrels with little to no R&D cost. Much easier to change the ammo than barrels. But they are too busy making money off of same old sh!t. 

 

[Arash]

I don't think FX barrels are way better than traditional barrel in term of slug.

As you may know FX is not the first user of slug and Huben was the one that manufactured first pcp for slugs.

But now days the commercial more than others that you can shoot slug with liner barrel.

Don't get this wrong, they are make their guns to shoot slugs better than others, but it's not due to one barrel twist rate.

They put high plenum vol, extra long barrel, all kind of adjustability, high shoot count and different type of barrel twist rate. all of this make FX guns shoot different type of slugs.

I’ve seen nothing come anywhere near fx liners at 150 200y with slugs? 


or is that just the fact that nobody is advertising it?

Some of my friends used FX barrel on different guns like cricket, steyr and some Turkish guns like kral and hatsan. Some of them have found it not as accurate as default barrel, but it's more common to use FX barrel for less expensive one.

Only FX impact videos are far more than all pcps videos in youtube.

 

[corny]

I don't think FX barrels are way better than traditional barrel in term of slug.

As you may know FX is not the first user of slug and Huben was the one that manufactured first pcp for slugs.

But now days the commercial more than others that you can shoot slug with liner barrel.

Don't get this wrong, they are make their guns to shoot slugs better than others, but it's not due to one barrel twist rate.

They put high plenum vol, extra long barrel, all kind of adjustability, high shoot count and different type of barrel twist rate. all of this make FX guns shoot different type of slugs.

I’ve seen nothing come anywhere near fx liners at 150 200y with slugs? 


or is that just the fact that nobody is advertising it?

Some of my friends used FX barrel on different guns like cricket, steyr and some Turkish guns like kral and hatsan. Some of them have found it not as accurate as default barrel, but it's more common to use FX barrel for less expensive one.

Only FX impact videos are far more than all pcps videos in youtube.

I used an FX slug liner A to make a carbon bonded barrel for my hatsan galatian. In .22 cal

Comfortably shot sub moa at 100yards with slugs.

it’s important to seat slugs to the correct depth with fx liners. Often an overlooked factor 

but the limiting factors turned out to be the air delivery system. Shot count was low…mayb 18-20 shots. 

 

[mercado]

The other air gun manufacturers are just lazy...a mandrel for hammer Forging cost $240 in any twist rate you need it done..good know how many barrels could be done before the mandrel is useless..the twist rates n chokes are already done n tested...so is not like air gun manufacturers need to spend 2 million in RD..

 

[Arash]

The other air gun manufacturers are just lazy...a mandrel for hammer Forging cost $240 in any twist rate you need it done..good know how many barrels could be done before the mandrel is useless..the twist rates n chokes are already done n tested...so is not like air gun manufacturers need to spend 2 million in RD..

They can't do that. how ever now days slugs getting really popular but majority of shooters still using standard pellet. you can not change the barrel of day-state or AGT like you do on FX. FX barrel are cheap compeering to other manufacture barrel.

 

[qball]

They can't do that. how ever now days slugs getting really popular but majority of shooters still using standard pellet. you can not change the barrel of day-state or AGT like you do on FX. FX barrel are cheap compeering to other manufacture barrel.

it is a bit harder to change barrels on other air guns but at the end of the day they are just threaded on. Many members here changed barrels on all these guns so not able to change barrel is mere excuse, a very poor excuse at best. 


Just wondering how do you know FX barrel is cheap? Have are you seen a cost breakdown structure per barrel from FX and other air guns? I’m fairly certain per unit the material cost is lower just because there is less metal but that doesn’t necessarily translate to lower overall cost due to tooling, machinery and people cost. I have a feeling FX’s machines are considerably more expensive compared to old mandrel and forging press or button rifle machines. Then most air gun companies are mere assemblers for parts made by others then it their own choice to have expensive parts because other people need to eat too and there are more of them compared to something made in house 

 

[Arash]

They can't do that. how ever now days slugs getting really popular but majority of shooters still using standard pellet. you can not change the barrel of day-state or AGT like you do on FX. FX barrel are cheap compeering to other manufacture barrel.

it is a bit harder to change barrels on other air guns but at the end of the day they are just threaded on. Many members here changed barrels on all these guns so not able to change barrel is mere excuse, a very poor excuse at best. 


Just wondering how do you know FX barrel is cheap? Have are you seen a cost breakdown structure per barrel from FX and other air guns? I’m fairly certain per unit the material cost is lower just because there is less metal but that doesn’t necessarily translate to lower overall cost due to tooling, machinery and people cost. I have a feeling FX’s machines are considerably more expensive compared to old mandrel and forging press or button rifle machines. Then most air gun companies are mere assemblers for parts made by others then it their own choice to have expensive parts because other people need to eat too and there are more of them compared to something made in house

As I remember each liner is under 100$, barrel without silencer around 120$ and full barrel with shroud around 250$.

One CZ or Lothar cost around 150$ then type of crowning like recessed target which cost around 150$ and shipping, finally adding extra part to fit it into gun that add to expenses.

Some guns like cricket us 15mm OD or you want above 600mm diameter that you have to order special barrel.

Then if you want to add silencer on chocked barrel you can not simply add thread at end of that barrel.

 

[qball]

@Arash: yes, those are design choices made by the gun designer. Also barrel availability is due to their logistics capability which also decisions made by the gun maker. Before FX no airgun makers really intended for barrel to be change by design so you have buy another gun, it’s a business decision.


Simple consequence/result for their business decisions driving their design decisions. If I can change barrels on center fire rifles and change caliber even in limited configuration why can’t humble little air guns change barrel within same caliber at least? This honestly goes back to they don’t want us to, they just want us buy another gun.......in my case I obliged bought many other brand guns! Where as FX made the barrel easy to change and I ended up buying 6 Fx air guns plus many extra barrels last 16 months.

 

[corny]

@Arash: yes, those are design choices made by the gun designer. Also barrel availability is due to their logistics capability which also decisions made by the gun maker. Before FX no airgun makers really intended for barrel to be change by design so you have buy another gun, it’s a business decision.


Simple consequence/result for their business decisions driving their design decisions. If I can change barrels on center fire rifles and change caliber even in limited configuration why can’t humble little air guns change barrel within same caliber at least? This honestly goes back to they don’t want us to, they just want us buy another gun.......in my case I obliged bought many other brand guns! Where as FX made the barrel easy to change and I ended up buying 6 Fx air guns plus many extra barrels last 16 months.

Airforce did it before FX I’m guessing. 

 

[qball]

Airforce did it before FX I’m guessing. 

Maybe, not most familiar with Airforce and not often talked about gun because it’s a simply but effective hunting gun. I don’t remember seeing many people posting about tinkering with them besides a few performance upgrades. It also helps they have slug barrels to begin with and I would buy one in a heart beat if CA lets me hunt boars with it. And if I hunt with it at all then I wouldn’t touch a thing once I get it setup, it’s not really a toy unlike my FX guns. 

 

[corny]

Airforce did it before FX I’m guessing. 

Maybe, not most familiar with Airforce and not often talked about gun because it’s a simply but effective hunting gun. I don’t remember seeing many people posting about tinkering with them besides a few performance upgrades. It also helps they have slug barrels to begin with and I would buy one in a heart beat if CA lets me hunt boars with it. And if I hunt with it at all then I wouldn’t touch a thing once I get it setup, it’s not really a toy unlike my FX guns.

They hav standard choked LW barrel. As far as I know. 
I don’t think LW makes a “slug air barrel”

i think the different is the simplicity of the platform, and that they can make power easily. 


they do have a pretty hot following….and plenty of tinkering is going of. Several web sites dedicated to airforce builds