Tuning Why aren't springers externally preload adustable?

Most all springers are setup to run at or near coil bind anyway. So there isn't a lot of wiggle room to alter power significantly enough to make it worth doing IMO.

And how are you going to overcome the bounce in the cycle once it's turned down? A bouncy gun is the most aggravating and hold sensitive thing you'd ever shoot.

If it existed, I'd run from it personally.
Assuming that we could start from scratch, a manufacturer could build in enough clearance between the trigger group and the piston to avoid coil bind in the full power setting.

I don’t see how this creates a big bounce issue when on low power, as long as you don’t leave any free space when the spring is fully extended. My TX200 has almost no preload when uncocked and it does not have a bounce problem. I can increase its power by increasing the preload and there is considerable space before it becomes coil bound.

You could argue that if you use a heavy pellet with little preload you will get bounce - but that’s solvable by using a lighter pellet.

This idea is definitely executable and would allow you to tune preload/power toward your preferred shot cycle and pellet.

-Marty
 
I imagine the price of the rifle would be more than worth the effort. Along with the longevity of the product, as there is a lot of tension inside those spring guns, and I’ve never seen a motorcycle shock unload like a HW80 does.

You can replace a spring in a TX200 that changes your power from 7 ftlbs to 15 ftlbs, and this process takes less than 30 min, and even less time once you’re used to the rifle. Also you would never have the adjustability in increasing or decreasing the spring tension like you do with a PCP adjustment, so how good would the tune be?

I do agree that it’s an interesting Idea, but so is a rail gun, and a cannon from the battle ship Wisconsin.
 
Altering the stroke length would be much more repeatable and offer a wider range of power adjustment while keeping a better shot cycle I think.

An extra long piston latch rod, with two notches for the sear spaced apart, and a pass through trigger mechanism could make it work. Cock it to the first notch for low power, and to the second notch for high power.
 
thumper,

You mean, like this - images below? Except the design I am playing with has 6 positions, at 6 mm increments. Rather than just two, like the HW45. So, tuneability via small increments, but lots of them, to provide a larger power range.

With so many increments, if all 6 sear notches were in line, one would get confused about which you are using. So, the spring guide can be rotated to select the stroke length you want to use, and you just cock it back until the mechanism clicks.

I have yet to add the 6 rotational position detent features I have in mind. This would be to keep the piston rod from rotating unintentionally. Back to the OP; If spring preload is variable via a threaded feature, that will need a detent or locknut to keep it from drifting in use, from vibration.

Simply unloading the spring via preload adjustment is great for small tuning changes. For a halving of power, the spring would need such a low preload that the spring would float off its rear support (unless the spring rate was much lower, with much greater preload applied).

More significantly; the piston motion would be sluggish. Lock-time would increase and it would become harder to shoot well, rather than easier. (a HW30 at 7 FPE has a much better shot cycle than a HW95 detuned to 7 FPE)

By shortening the effective stroke length along with the spring preload, such sluggishness and long lock-time can be largely avoided. As the swept volume is also reduced with this concept, the power would probably drop off faster than proportional with stroke length changes. So, the increments should probably not be equal in size for the sear notch positions, unless the increments are very small. Rather, some sort of square root function in sear notch position, to increment power in more equal steps would probably be better.

I was not quite ready to post this, but thumper beat me to expressing the same root idea, that occurred to me two days ago. Anyway, it saves me from spending too much time polishing the design, to add missing elements, such as the trigger sear and selection detent. Never mind the compression tube cocking slot... :)

One could use a single piston sear notch, and use a movable trigger sear, but somehow that seems less elegant, but is probably feasible. Either way, achieving a good and consistent trigger pull between settings is likely to tricky. So the images below should be seen as conceptual, rather than "production ready".

multi stoke length piston2.JPG


multi stoke length piston.JPG


multi stoke length piston3.JPG
 
thumper,

You mean, like this - images below? Except the design I am playing with has 6 positions, at 6 mm increments. Rather than just two, like the HW45. So, tuneability via small increments, but lots of them, to provide a larger power range.

With so many increments, if all 6 sear notches were in line, one would get confused about which you are using. So, the spring guide can be rotated to select the stroke length you want to use, and you just cock it back until the mechanism clicks.

I have yet to add the 6 rotational position detent features I have in mind. This would be to keep the piston rod from rotating unintentionally. Back to the OP; If spring preload is variable via a threaded feature, that will need a detent or locknut to keep it from drifting in use, from vibration.

Simply unloading the spring via preload adjustment is great for small tuning changes. For a halving of power, the spring would need such a low preload that the spring would float off its rear support (unless the spring rate was much lower, with much greater preload applied).

More significantly; the piston motion would be sluggish. Lock-time would increase and it would become harder to shoot well, rather than easier. (a HW30 at 7 FPE has a much better shot cycle than a HW95 detuned to 7 FPE)

By shortening the effective stroke length along with the spring preload, such sluggishness and long lock-time can be largely avoided. As the swept volume is also reduced with this concept, the power would probably drop off faster than proportional with stroke length changes. So, the increments should probably not be equal in size for the sear notch positions, unless the increments are very small. Rather, some sort of square root function in sear notch position, to increment power in more equal steps would probably be better.

I was not quite ready to post this, but thumper beat me to expressing the same root idea, that occurred to me two days ago. Anyway, it saves me from spending too much time polishing the design, to add missing elements, such as the trigger sear and selection detent. Never mind the compression tube cocking slot... :)

One could use a single piston sear notch, and use a movable trigger sear, but somehow that seems less elegant, but is probably feasible. Either way, achieving a good and consistent trigger pull between settings is likely to tricky. So the images below should be seen as conceptual, rather than "production ready".

View attachment 423138

View attachment 423139

View attachment 423146

"Simply unloading the spring via preload adjustment is great for small tuning changes. For a halving of power, the spring would need such a low preload that the spring would float off its rear support (unless the spring rate was much lower, with much greater preload applied)."

"More significantly; the piston motion would be sluggish. Lock-time would increase and it would become harder to shoot well, rather than easier. (a HW30 at 7 FPE has a much better shot cycle than a HW95 detuned to 7 FPE)"


This is exactly the point I was trying to make. A bouncy and sluggish gun is the hardest thing you will ever try to shoot accurately. A gun with inherently heavy mass weight masks it to an extent *COUGH*....detuned TX200s with a stock stroke.....*COUGH* but reducing the swept volume in these guns will make a much easier shooting gun.

IMO altering the swept volume is the only feasible way to do this and have it be anything useable and not just a novelty. There's probably a reason Weihrauch didn't just make the HW95 and toss lighter springs in it to call it an HW50S or an HW30.
 
So, the question of how Weihrauch manages to reduce their HW95 and 80 to 5.5 FPE for the German market seems pertinent. Here is a thread about that; and related questions:




 
A bit more detail: Cocked piston position using the max and min stroke settings respectively:
subscriber, a well thought out approach as usual! I've been pondering similar designs over the last 3-years: one using a rotatable piston skirt, such as yours, as well as multi-latch sears, similar to how a bear-trap works. That said, I like the rotatable skirt better and recently I've been thinking about the advantages of combining a variable stroke length solution (like yours) and spring pre-load adjustment into one, while being externally accessible to the user.

What I had in mind is redesigning the trigger group (such as the one on a TX200 or LGU) to allow a rod to pass through the trigger unit to the back of the spring and piston skirt. The rode would consist of two pieces, a solid inner rod that would interface with the back of the piston skirt lug nut (allowing it to be turned) and an outer cylinder that covers the rod. The outer cylinder would be somewhat shorter than the rode and it would have a flange on which the spring would sit, much like springs sit on washers today. Rotating the outer cylinder would result in the flange being pressed or depressed against the spring because the outer cylinder would be threaded and move in and out on threads on the inside of the trigger housing. The rode/cylinder assembly would protrude slightly through the back of the trigger endcap (towards the user). At the trigger-endcap the user could insert an Allen key to turn the inner rod that turns the piston skirt (this could also be a permanent L shaped lever). Furthermore, the outer cylinder would also protrude slightly through the endcap and terminate in a knurled flange. Turning this "thumb wheel" would increase/decrease the preload on the spring. I hope the word imagery is sufficient, as I haven't put this idea into a parametric model yet (maybe sometime in the near future I will get to it).

The reason I'd like to combine the two features is because it would allow for optimization of preload and stroke length to the desired pellet weight. Hopefully, improving efficiency by reducing piston bounce and reducing sluggishness at the lower power levels.... I welcome your thoughts.

-Marty
 
There is a fine line .. well not necessarily fine but a line none the less, Where the piston in an ideal tune when released and making pressure to launch a pellet has said piston decelerate and come to rest on a cushion of compressed air preventing piston slam, and hard enough to not have bounce as it bottoms out.

Now with a fixed spring rate .... if we back off far enough to see the power drop away many Ft Lbs on the preload we're at risk of piston bounce, and if preload increased, Slamming of piston into roof of compression chamber becomes a risk.
More preload also risks the spring going into coil bind causing other issues mechanically.

Just a viewpoint and some FYI :cautious:
 
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Marty,

As one is not exchanging the spring with one having a different spring rate as part of the adjustment, being able to vary the stroke length and the spring preload seems like a more versatile and useful system. Else I think the sweet spot might be a bit narrow, with only stroke length adjustment.

Also, using a thread enables near infinite adjustment (over a still narrow range), rather than a few discreet steps. So, a thread is better, providing there is a way to prevent the system from drifting off the desired setting.
 
Marty,

As one is not exchanging the spring with one having a different spring rate as part of the adjustment, being able to vary the stroke length and the spring preload seems like a more versatile and useful system. Else I think the sweet spot might be a bit narrow, with only stroke length adjustment.

Also, using a thread enables near infinite adjustment (over a still narrow range), rather than a few discreet steps. So, a thread is better, providing there is a way to prevent the system from drifting off the desired setting.
Fixed spring rate & preload .... Change stroke to differing positions within the cocking cycle to have trigger connect to piston is the ideal solution I would agree.
For those who know of the HW45 ( Beeman P-1 ) it has a HIGH / LOW in the cocking cycle. At @ 1/2 cock the sear goes Click and your in a low power position. Continue past the first Click & when near full cocking swing a second click is heard being the Full Power position.
 
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Ok, so I put this quick CAD model together. Excuse the elementary modeling (I'm a newbie). The inner rod that begins on the left side of the image would rotate inside the outer cylinder, thus allowing skirt rotation via rotating a hex key in the receiving hole on the opposite end. The spring could be preloaded as you please using the thumb wheel.

PS. The Thumb wheel and hex hole are facing the shooter at the end of the trigger block in case its not clear. Also, the inner rode would have a male hex (far left) to match the skirt, I was just too lazy to add it to the model.

-Marty

SkirtAndSpringAdjustment.png
 
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There is a fine line .. well not necessarily fine but a line none the less, Where the piston in an ideal tune when released and making pressure to launch a pellet has said piston decelerate and come to rest on a cushion of compressed air preventing piston slam, and hard enough to not have bounce as it bottoms out.

Now with a fixed spring rate .... if we back off far enough to see the power drop away many Ft Lbs on the preload we're at risk of piston bounce, and if preload increased, Slamming of piston into roof of compression chamber becomes a risk.
More preload also risks the spring going into coil bind causing other issues mechanically.

Just a viewpoint and some FYI :cautious:
Indeed, I think the combination of the stroke length adjustment and preload fine tuning should allow fine enough adjustments to eliminate potential slamming or bounce, in theory!

But there is more! I've also come up with a way to vary the piston mass externally without tools. However, it gets a bit complicated and I don't have the CAD or drawing skills yet to put the idea on paper. Anyways.... no need to go there yet, save it for a later discussion ;-)

-Marty
 
Fixed spring rate & preload .... Change stroke to differing positions within the cocking cycle to have trigger connect to piston is the ideal solution I would agree.
For those who know of the HW45 ( Beeman P-1 ) it has a HIGH / LOW in the cocking cycle. At @ 1/2 cock the sear goes Click and your in a low power position. Continue past the first Click & when near full cocking swing a second click is heard being the Full Power position.

Yes; hence this extension of that idea:
https://www.airgunnation.com/thread...rnally-preload-adustable.1304063/post-1648818
 
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I agree with that statement. However, there is always room for a niche, reason people love the FWB300s and D56s.

-Marty
I agree with that statement, however the title of the thread is "why aren't springers externally adjustable", not "why doesnt someone make a niche model that has multiple power settings". There are springers with multiple power settings. If you want one you can buy one. If you think you can do it better than they do, then do it. The answer to the title question is exactly what I posted. Nothing more or less.

One of the issues here is the disconnect between thinking that businesses are able to cater to niche enthusiasts. I see many questions here that are essentially "why don't airgun companies make exactly what I need and want". The answer is always, because they have a business to run and it doesnt make sense for them to try to cater to every want and need. You think like an enthusiast, they think like business people that have to make a profit in a generalized market to survive. It is the answer whether you like it or not. You don't have to agree with me in order for me to be right.
 
I agree with that statement, however the title of the thread is "why aren't springers externally adjustable", not "why doesnt someone make a niche model that has multiple power settings". There are springers with multiple power settings. If you want one you can buy one. If you think you can do it better than they do, then do it. The answer to the title question is exactly what I posted. Nothing more or less.

One of the issues here is the disconnect between thinking that businesses are able to cater to niche enthusiasts. I see many questions here that are essentially "why don't airgun companies make exactly what I need and want". The answer is always, because they have a business to run and it doesnt make sense for them to try to cater to every want and need. You think like an enthusiast, they think like business people that have to make a profit in a generalized market to survive. It is the answer whether you like it or not. You don't have to agree with me in order for me to be right.
Yes, I did get a bit ahead of myself and forget what the title of the thread was. That said, I think you extrapolate too much about my thinking. I agree that businesses usually cater to profit margins and to the largest addressable market. That said, there is room for niche products at appropriate prices (just check out etsy). An adjustable springer would be a niche product that would probably be priced double of a typical springer.

At the moment I'm just here to talk about the technical aspects of whether it's doable or not. However, there are a few people on this and other forums that have not only thought of the technical points but are also working on the business implementation. A decade ago, launching a new springer to compete with the heavy weights was not economically viable but I think we've turned a corner. Today, you can draw up a new design in CAD, print a semi-functional prototype from a 3D printer at home. Ensure that pieces fit together as expected and test the ergonomics. Then you send it off to an online CNC shop to make a working prototype. If all works out with the CNCed prototype you can take pre-orders on a place like Kickstarter. There are plenty of services that will do production on a few hundred pieces, and the best part is you don't have to curate sales channels or pay middlemen. You can take pre-orders and not build a single production rifle until there is enough demand.

I think we can agree that you won't get an adjustable springer at standard prices, and it won't come from Gamo, Weirauch or Diana. But it's definitely not an unrealizable endeavor for a small entrepreneur.

-Marty