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Who’s the King of 100?

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Jim….nobody will likely shoot a 250 at 100y with pellets in Raton even with the 9 becoming the 10. We want to try a bigger target.

The real question is do you plan to attend?

If we don’t get at least a dozen new people to come and shoot 100….it isn’t gonna happen. It will literally be twice the work for us…maybe more.

Mike
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I have no problem with the bigger target, just putting in my $.000002 worth. I would actually be a bit disappointed if you don't try it. My only worry is that the target could, someday, become "easy" enough that it becomes commonplace to determine 1st place using a tie-breaker (X-count). In my mind that would introduce a lot of luck into the results. I would much rather see the X-ring be scored as an 11 so it becomes of value to all shooters, not just those that happen to be tied with another. I realize that that is not likely to happen.

I definitely hope to attend the N50 Nationals. I hesitate to promise anything because I have several miladies, arthritis, gout, bad back, etc, that sometimes get bad enough that I can't participate. I would really hate to promise to be there and then not show up. I am not a fan of shooting airguns at 100 yds, but I would do so just to support the sport. My main desire is to shoot 50 yd pellets. 

If my son is able to get off work, he would really like to come too. You ought to contact Justin or Austen at Utah Airguns and see if they were interested in being a sponsor. That might help my son and one or two others to get some time off to come to the match.

--Jim
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Jim

I don’t think you have to worry about too many folks shooting a “250” at 100 yards with pellets, and then using the ‘X’ ring hits for tiebreakers. I hope I live long enough to see this phenomenon. Even with the proposed 1.35” 10 ring, this will be very difficult. 
😃😃
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I agree that there are not going to be many, if any, 250's shot. You don't have to have a 250 to tie for 1st, or any position. Making the 10-ring larger will result in more persons shooting higher scores, so there is a greater likelihood of a tie at 1st place. My guess is that there might be quite a few high scores in the 235 to 240 range. If, for example, there are two or three shooters with 235's in first place, then you have to break the tie with X-count.

--Jim
 
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It means exactly what I said. From first place to 20th was 75 or so points at EBR for ONE card. RMAC was closer to 40. Getting beat by 12 points in a THREE card match is a pretty good beating. Getting beat by 120-225 points is something that shouldn’t happen. The target is way out of whack for the equipment and abilities at 100y with pellets. The RMAC is better….but still poor.

Despite everyone saying the EBR cards and the RMAC are the same….they are significantly different. The RMAC/PYA card numbers will always be higher than if the EBR card and plug was used instead. The rings are bigger and so is the plug. The combination of those 2 things can make a pretty big difference. Actually it’s almost the same amount different as the N50 pro plug vs the sportsman….which on average is 6-7 points. It’s likely a contributing factor in why the spreads are smaller at RMAC.

Mike 
 
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Exactly. The RMAC cards are 0.030” larger for the ten ring than the EBR cards. If the top ten single card finals are compared it’s much closer, 12 for RMAC 2021 and 14 for EBR 2021. 

EBR Targets. 

  • Target Size Measures:
  •  in inches
  • X ring ……… 0.200
  • 10 ring……… 0.470
  • 9 ring………. 1.250
  • 8 ring………. 2.000
 
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RMAC/PYA also use a .350” plug vs .300”

These are the sizes I see for RMAC/PYA. The 10 ring makes the least of the difference at .050”. The 9 is .100” bigger, and the 8 is .180” bigger…plus the bigger plug. That’s a lot.

o X Ring 0.200 

o 10 Ring 0.520

o 9 Ring 1.350

o 8 Ring 2.180

o 7 Ring 3.010

o 6 Ring 3.840

o 5 Ring 4.670

o 4 Ring 5.500
 
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It means exactly what I said. From first place to 20th was 75 or so points at EBR for ONE card. RMAC was closer to 40. Getting beat by 12 points in a THREE card match is a pretty good beating. Getting beat by 120-225 points is something that shouldn’t happen. The target is way out of whack for the equipment and abilities at 100y with pellets. The RMAC is better….but still poor.

Despite everyone saying the EBR cards and the RMAC are the same….they are significantly different. The RMAC/PYA card numbers will always be higher than if the EBR card and plug was used instead. The rings are bigger and so is the plug. The combination of those 2 things can make a pretty big difference. Actually it’s almost the same amount different as the N50 pro plug vs the sportsman….which on average is 6-7 points. It’s likely a contributing factor in why the spreads are smaller at RMAC.

Mike
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One additional difference between EBR and RMAC: If you shoot into the record area but outside the scoring rings (plugged if necessary), you get 3 points on the EBR format, but 0 points in RMAC format. Personally, I like the RMAC variation, and was one who argued for that rule in the beginning. With the EBR rule, you could miss your point of aim by 3 feet and still get 30% of the possible score for that shot. If you prefer the EBR format, I would suggest using the boxes around the bulls like on the N50 target.

Whether you decide to hold the "K100" event at the nationals or not, I hope you continue the work on the target. It would be nice if you could come up with a smaller card but still reasonable size bulls. That may not be possible given the difficulty of shooting a pellet at 100 yds. A smaller target would be less expensive and might fit on the target stands at more ranges.

Comparing the K100 target next to the RMAC target, the K100 just looks nicer to me. One difference I would like to see is to make the X into the 10. There are several ways to break ties, such as number of 10's, then number of 9's, and etc. Personally, I believe the only reason to break ties is when a physical award is being given that can not be divided between the tied parties. If it is common to have ties at the top level, the target is too easy. Just my opinion.

--Jim
 
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For as long as I’ve been involved in BR….I cannot recall a match where there was a tie for first place. That’s mostly because real BR matches shoot a minimum of 3 cards to form an aggregate. 

One card BR matches are prone to cause ties.

Many BR matches are set up with X’s. When you have X’s at play….the winner of the game is the guy that can hit the most 10s. That’s the strategy. If you shoot for X’s you will have a greater chance of missing 10s. In N50 or USARB BR….you should worry about hitting 10s….that’s how you will win the game. It’s not about who gets closest to the center on average….it’s about maximum consistency in attaining the goal of touching the 10.

This argument of giving X’s a numerical value has been going on forever. it goes like this….someone that shoots a 249 24x is technically more accurate than someone that shoots a 250 0x. Yes, that’s true….but the game the way it is structured is about making the minimum threshold. Look at it as if the 10 ring was a hole that you had to shoot through like FT. The guy that shoots through the hole the most wins. That’s how most BR games are set up and they require an understanding of this principle to accel. It’s incredibly hard to be consistent enough to meet the 250 threshold. If you examine the number of 750s shot in USARB and N50…..it’s very small. As the number goes down to 749 or 748…..a lot more will meet that mark. Perfection in getting all the bullets through the “hole” is much more difficult than getting most through the hole and closer to the center. It’s far easier to get a gun to shoot a low score with a good x count than it is to get a gun to shoot a 250.

Its my view that score BR is about attaining perfection (getting the bullet through the hole EVERY time). That requires a specific strategy.

Games like IR5050 10 shot are less perfection oriented and more accuracy oriented. Getting closest to the middle more often is more important than getting all of the shots inside a minimum threshold.

Jim….you are seeking to change the strategy of the game. If ties are your struggle….then you need to get RMAC to just count the qualifying targets also. A 3 card agg will do away with ties.

Al…..as I posted earlier…..we have decided NOT to add the 100 to the N50 Nats. Just not enough interest to make the double or more effort required worthwhile.

Mike 
 
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Mike,

I think you made one of my points much better than I have... X-count is meaningless, except to break a tie.

I am not all that concerned about ties, at the top or in the middle. In fact, I argue that a tie is a tie and should only be broken by X-count if absolutely necessary. It would be nice if we could settle them with a shoot-off, like in high-end position matches, but that is not practical in our game.

I would love to see several targets counted in the final match. At RMAC it is not possible given the available schedule. 

Just for fun, I checked what the result would have been last year if the qualifying targets were included in the final score. I only did it for the top ten finishers in Sportsman Class because I had easy access to the scores and my hand got tired after writing down that many. Of the top ten, three would have remained in the same position, 2nd, 3rd, and 7th. First place would have moved to 4th, 4th to 6th, 5th to 1st, 6th to 10th, 8th to 5th, 9th to 8th, and 10th to 9th. There was originally a tie for 2nd but after including the qualifying scores there were no ties. The problem with combining the scores is that they were shot on two different ranges in 4 different conditions. The 4 different conditions were seriously different, too. Maybe someday they can arrange for a better way to run the match, but for now it is what it is. Given that there are no better alternatives, I guess we should be glad that these few matches even exist.

--Jim
 
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It’s meaningless until you reach the 250 threshold….and on the current targets it will never be a factor. The triple crown of Rimfire took place this weekend. In the IR5050 portion there were 10-12 750s shot each 3 card round. The xs were quite meaningful in that case. They are meaningless in pellet matches at 100y because the target is about 4x smaller than is should be. It’s all part of the hype. 

Mike
 
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