I'd be new to the competitive shooting but I'm in as I'm most definitely interested in trying my hand at competitive shooting. I'm only down in Las Cruces so it'd be an easy drive up for me.
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Who’s the King of 100?
- Thread starter thomasair
- Start date
The N50 Nationals will be held at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, NM on August 26-28 this year. At this point, we are inclined to just do N50 and not add 100y.
Mike
Mike
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A waste of bandwidth, but that's a good try.
Comes here WHINING whilst accusing of the same, states some no SH!T Sherlock 3rd grader logic about drawing relay and bench but not comprehending the what's and the why's of such, belches out notions of a fantasy match that lacks perfection at its mention, and the inference of MUSZAK playing is a precious move since I had to look up the meaning, one which I suppose Ho must be intimately familiar with.
Quote "Part of the skill, the greatest and most important part, is the ability to prepare and "adjust to any eventuality" Hey man that's some serious secrete squirrel James Bond stuff right there, thanks for the tip, I could sure use some of that pixy dust you're selling next time a "VARIABLE of OBJECTIVE REALITY" decides to show up, LOL!!!
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Most of us would like to see benchrest matches where everyone shoots in the same relay. My question is: Where is such a range? There are no ranges that I am aware of within 1000 miles of me (Utah) which would be suitable for a RMAC/EBR match.
--Jim
--Jim
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NRA Whittington Center in Raton, NM has 80 benches and leveled concrete target bases at 100y. Probably 600 miles from you.
I think Ben Avery in Phoenix has 60…but it’s a much better range than Rio Salado.
Just a big enough range alone won’t fix the massive disparity in EBR and RMAC. Multiple cards with bench rotation are necessary.
Mike
I think Ben Avery in Phoenix has 60…but it’s a much better range than Rio Salado.
Just a big enough range alone won’t fix the massive disparity in EBR and RMAC. Multiple cards with bench rotation are necessary.
Mike
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My 2 cents: This is about a precise explanation of bench shooting as there is. ANYONE can have that great card, shot one time or another, on any given range, winning a match. BUT that doesnt support them being the best shooter at that event, just means you shot the best card in that 1 relay, in that 1 match that mattered. Bench shooters all know that aggregate scoring shows who the best shooters are, thats no slight to those shooting and winning theses events,because the winner shot the best card at that event, that day. But saying someone is the BEST shooter for 1 card, 1 lane, 1 event is stretching it a bunch.
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Mike,
Raton is the largest I could think of. To shoot everyone in the same relay you would have needed at least 150 benches in 2021 and there would have been even more shooters if not for the pandemic crap that is going on.
Both RMAC and EBR are forced to have multiple relays, or limit participation. Both are working with limited time, too, since there are multiple events going on at the same time.
I don't remember what EBR did, but RMAC does use bench rotation. They only use two cards to "qualify", then draw for benches, but that is mainly because of time and range size constraints.
If you look at the results, you will find that the top 10 shooters were pretty well distributed across the range (both in qualifying matches and finals). There are always differences in conditions across a range and between relays, but the better shooters seem to figure them out pretty quick. Of course, everyone is still free to whine about how bad their conditions were compared to everyone else, but that is nature.
I would love to see some "better" benchrest tournaments around the country. I guess it just shows that there is not that much interest in actually running such matches since no one seems to be doing it. Still, it is fun to talk about (and complain about) the few large matches that do take place. It is interesting to see how others would do things if they were in charge, but it is rare to find anyone willing to actually hold such a tournament. Maybe such a tournament is not practical, or maybe not possible, but we can always dream, can't we.
Until someone steps up and holds a "better" tournament, I guess I will continue to shoot whats available. But, I do reserve the right to whine about how I always have to shoot in the worst relays and draw the worst benches every single time. I am pretty lucky, though, in that I don't have to win to have a good time.
--Jim
Raton is the largest I could think of. To shoot everyone in the same relay you would have needed at least 150 benches in 2021 and there would have been even more shooters if not for the pandemic crap that is going on.
Both RMAC and EBR are forced to have multiple relays, or limit participation. Both are working with limited time, too, since there are multiple events going on at the same time.
I don't remember what EBR did, but RMAC does use bench rotation. They only use two cards to "qualify", then draw for benches, but that is mainly because of time and range size constraints.
If you look at the results, you will find that the top 10 shooters were pretty well distributed across the range (both in qualifying matches and finals). There are always differences in conditions across a range and between relays, but the better shooters seem to figure them out pretty quick. Of course, everyone is still free to whine about how bad their conditions were compared to everyone else, but that is nature.
I would love to see some "better" benchrest tournaments around the country. I guess it just shows that there is not that much interest in actually running such matches since no one seems to be doing it. Still, it is fun to talk about (and complain about) the few large matches that do take place. It is interesting to see how others would do things if they were in charge, but it is rare to find anyone willing to actually hold such a tournament. Maybe such a tournament is not practical, or maybe not possible, but we can always dream, can't we.
Until someone steps up and holds a "better" tournament, I guess I will continue to shoot whats available. But, I do reserve the right to whine about how I always have to shoot in the worst relays and draw the worst benches every single time. I am pretty lucky, though, in that I don't have to win to have a good time.
--Jim
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Jim…I think the main problem is that without the 2 big hype/big money matches…100y air rifles pellet BR doesn’t exist. There is no club level participation…not even in Phoenix where it was originated. It’s a top down arrangement. Remove the prizes, and 100y BR disappears.
Raton would be perfect for EBR or RMAC since half the shooters are two classes….sportsman and pro. There is no reason for both classes to run the same relay since they are not competing with each other.
Mike
Raton would be perfect for EBR or RMAC since half the shooters are two classes….sportsman and pro. There is no reason for both classes to run the same relay since they are not competing with each other.
Mike
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Since some people mentioned the other big events, me personally, concerning EBR and RMAC, when I pay the entry fees I accept all rules, targets, and net consequences involved. I look at it as paying for "services rendered" for the purpose of "entertainment" rather than expecting to win something although like the rest of us there is always that faint hope of doing well. I don't expect perfection nor do I see any Huge glaring problems with how they are run because I understand that to put everyone through the events there is only so much time and space to use at the current locations. I do enjoy them for the most part and there is a lot of good times at these events. I also appreciate the people that make these events possible.
Are there things I recognize that I'd like to see changed, sure I can, as do others, but it doesn't bother me enough to do anything more than to voice my opinion about, even if this is construed as whining. If nothing changes, oh well, life goes on, not much to be done about it. Just because I have certain opinions doesn't mean I dislike the greater portion of these events. Sorted pellets causing big flyers I am stumped by but??? Drawing the windy relay and worst benches, oh well its a gamble and that's the way it goes, first your money then your clothes, as my Dad used to say, lol.
Concerning a K100 type of match, to me it more aligns with traditional BR events already being done across the world which more assures the best of the best prevails. Not that those that won EBR and RMAC were not great shooters deserving their wins and prizes.
If a K100 ever came to be I'd like to go just to learn and gain experience.
Are there things I recognize that I'd like to see changed, sure I can, as do others, but it doesn't bother me enough to do anything more than to voice my opinion about, even if this is construed as whining. If nothing changes, oh well, life goes on, not much to be done about it. Just because I have certain opinions doesn't mean I dislike the greater portion of these events. Sorted pellets causing big flyers I am stumped by but??? Drawing the windy relay and worst benches, oh well its a gamble and that's the way it goes, first your money then your clothes, as my Dad used to say, lol.
Concerning a K100 type of match, to me it more aligns with traditional BR events already being done across the world which more assures the best of the best prevails. Not that those that won EBR and RMAC were not great shooters deserving their wins and prizes.
If a K100 ever came to be I'd like to go just to learn and gain experience.
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Mike,
I agree about the 100 yd pellet benchrest. There are several problems that make it difficult for many clubs to run a match. One being the size of the target stand required to hold the target cards. The targets being 3' x 4' make them difficult to use and fairly expensive for use at a club match.
In 2021 there were more than 80 shooters in pro class (RMAC), but given the location of Raton, it might discourage a few shooters. It could certainly be capped at 80 competitors in each class. I would love to see a tournament held there and would definitely try to attend. I would not be surprised if the RMAC crew would be anxious to help if someone was to contact them with a serious plan to hold such a tournament. Whether the sponsors would be willing to pony up the cash and prizes for such an event, I have no clue. Even if the prizes were considerably smaller than RMAC/EBR, I suspect you would get a good number of competitors. Like you said, there are not a lot of chances to compete at this type of tournament during the year.
I, personally, prefer to shoot air rifles and rimfires at 50 yds, but I would try to support benchrest at any reasonable distance.
--Jim
I agree about the 100 yd pellet benchrest. There are several problems that make it difficult for many clubs to run a match. One being the size of the target stand required to hold the target cards. The targets being 3' x 4' make them difficult to use and fairly expensive for use at a club match.
In 2021 there were more than 80 shooters in pro class (RMAC), but given the location of Raton, it might discourage a few shooters. It could certainly be capped at 80 competitors in each class. I would love to see a tournament held there and would definitely try to attend. I would not be surprised if the RMAC crew would be anxious to help if someone was to contact them with a serious plan to hold such a tournament. Whether the sponsors would be willing to pony up the cash and prizes for such an event, I have no clue. Even if the prizes were considerably smaller than RMAC/EBR, I suspect you would get a good number of competitors. Like you said, there are not a lot of chances to compete at this type of tournament during the year.
I, personally, prefer to shoot air rifles and rimfires at 50 yds, but I would try to support benchrest at any reasonable distance.
--Jim
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You can not compare Golf to a one card match unrealistic. In golf you play 4 rds each teeing off different times plus front nine or back nine starting. These big events are just what they are, a fun time gathering, folks get to wear their Nascar type shirts, you get to see new products, and hopefully lucky enough to win something, I get it. It does not represent true accuracy at all and I get it. Folks need to quit justifying why they attend, I get it.
Joe
Joe
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CC
Comparing hitting a ball with a club, and shooting, doesn’t really track. Yes, they are both done outdoors. So they are affected by the weather. However, In golf, once the cut takes place, the leaders all play together. Bottom line, they do their best to keep it as even as they can under the conditions that they have to work with. Very rarely is a golf tournament decided by 1/ 10th of an inch different in accuracy.
I stumbled onto this website a few years ago. I started posting my best groups. the best groups I shoot, not the average ones. You were quick to point out that these magic groups were luck
. That the most relevant thing was to shoot a card of 25.
The ironic thing is, the single 25 shot magic group or card, has a lot of luck involved. We’ve explained those luck elements previously, I won’t dissect them again.
Once you make the cut like in a golf tournament, how hard would it be to shoot multiple cards instead of just one? If the facility has 50 benches, the cut leaves 50 players.
It would be quite easy to set up two, three or four final cards with rotating benches on the final day for the Pro Level… I would think it could easily be done in one day.
Everyone shoots together in the finals. Because everyone’s in the final group.
Different rules for the amateur division. To keep it simple. They would just finish with the one card.
This thread is actually making the same exact point that you have been making for years. A magic group is not statistically significant. Whether it’s 5 or 10 or 25 shots. That’s why they use aggregates for Benchrest.
Bottom line, if you had multiple cards, and you sat down to shoot your first card, and it was a bad Lane, you’d still be in the game. My understanding is, right now that is not the case.
You could also compress the timeframe for each card.
I think that the events that are out there for 100 yards could use a refresh.
I would like to come compete. However, knowing that I can get knocked out of the competition by a roll of the dice or a random factor I have no control of, doesn’t get me on a plane.
Even two cards for the finals, would be twice as good as one. Why not four cards on the final day, an hour apart? Same shooters for each card, different benches.
I don’t understand why it would drag it out for additional days.
mike
Comparing hitting a ball with a club, and shooting, doesn’t really track. Yes, they are both done outdoors. So they are affected by the weather. However, In golf, once the cut takes place, the leaders all play together. Bottom line, they do their best to keep it as even as they can under the conditions that they have to work with. Very rarely is a golf tournament decided by 1/ 10th of an inch different in accuracy.
I stumbled onto this website a few years ago. I started posting my best groups. the best groups I shoot, not the average ones. You were quick to point out that these magic groups were luck
. That the most relevant thing was to shoot a card of 25.The ironic thing is, the single 25 shot magic group or card, has a lot of luck involved. We’ve explained those luck elements previously, I won’t dissect them again.
Once you make the cut like in a golf tournament, how hard would it be to shoot multiple cards instead of just one? If the facility has 50 benches, the cut leaves 50 players.
It would be quite easy to set up two, three or four final cards with rotating benches on the final day for the Pro Level… I would think it could easily be done in one day.
Everyone shoots together in the finals. Because everyone’s in the final group.
Different rules for the amateur division. To keep it simple. They would just finish with the one card.
This thread is actually making the same exact point that you have been making for years. A magic group is not statistically significant. Whether it’s 5 or 10 or 25 shots. That’s why they use aggregates for Benchrest.
Bottom line, if you had multiple cards, and you sat down to shoot your first card, and it was a bad Lane, you’d still be in the game. My understanding is, right now that is not the case.
You could also compress the timeframe for each card.
I think that the events that are out there for 100 yards could use a refresh.
I would like to come compete. However, knowing that I can get knocked out of the competition by a roll of the dice or a random factor I have no control of, doesn’t get me on a plane.
Even two cards for the finals, would be twice as good as one. Why not four cards on the final day, an hour apart? Same shooters for each card, different benches.
I don’t understand why it would drag it out for additional days.
mike
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There is actually no reason to compare BR to any other sport. There is a long standing history in BR that defines how a proper BR tournament is to be conducted. If you want to call something a real tournament…then you follow real tournament procedure. It’s really that simple.
The 2 existing 100y pellet matches that take place are not going to change, and it’s a waste of time talking about it.
I started this to see if there were guys out there that actually wanted to shoot in a genuine 100y BR competition solely for the purpose of determining who’s really the best. I would like to see such a tournament. Unfortunately, there is no time slot available for it at the Whittington Center this year…and running it along with N50 Nationals isn’t something we really want to do.
Mike
The 2 existing 100y pellet matches that take place are not going to change, and it’s a waste of time talking about it.
I started this to see if there were guys out there that actually wanted to shoot in a genuine 100y BR competition solely for the purpose of determining who’s really the best. I would like to see such a tournament. Unfortunately, there is no time slot available for it at the Whittington Center this year…and running it along with N50 Nationals isn’t something we really want to do.
Mike
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These big events are just what they are, a fun time gathering, folks get to wear their Nascar type shirts, you get to see new products, and hopefully lucky enough to win something, I get it. It does not represent true accuracy at all and I get it. Folks need to quit justifying why they attend, I get it.
Joe
Totally agree... kinda like IPSC with the shirts I would think.
Out of this post, but IN for a 100Y King of the Hill if there ever is one...
Joe
Totally agree... kinda like IPSC with the shirts I would think.
Out of this post, but IN for a 100Y King of the Hill if there ever is one...
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Scott...the last 4-5 lanes on the right at Rio are complete poop if the wind is coming from the right....which it does a lot. You will have massive up and downs that you cannot account for. Its frustrating even at 25m. There are poopty lanes at every range, but sometimes they are not always the same. Its accepted practice at big events to rotate so everyone gets a chance to shoot the good and the bad. There are also spots at ranges that they call honey holes....meaning that the wind is very sheltered and you can have a much easier time than the rest. There is no need to argue about the existence of the good and bad....as they are real things and the very reason that bench rotation and multiple card aggs (the more the better) were put in place long ago by folks that care to find the actual best shooter.
Mike
Mike
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Scotchmo
I have to admit I have never shot there. My information is coming second hand.
We both know it doesn’t take much to move a pellet an inch at 100 yards. Even in what I consider perfect conditions at my home range, I find the target size very challenging.
mike
I have to admit I have never shot there. My information is coming second hand.
We both know it doesn’t take much to move a pellet an inch at 100 yards. Even in what I consider perfect conditions at my home range, I find the target size very challenging.
mike
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