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Weird barrel/accuracy issues - Brocock Concept Lite

Hi all! I've been having some accuracy issues with my Concept Lite and after some discussion/trouble shooting in another thread in the PCP section it was suggested that I present the latest info in the GD section.

Today I pulled the barrel apart/out and gave it a thorough cleaning. Since I had the barrel removed from the receiver I used a traditional .17 cal rod/brush/plastic jag. While cleaning it with the jag and patches I noticed something extremely weird- as I was pulling the plastic jag back through the bore without a patch once I got past the choked portion of the muzzle end of the barrel the jag had very light drag until I got to about 9" from the breech where drag increased a uniform amount until reaching the breech/chamber. It feels like after the first 9" or so of the barrel the bore diameter increases slightly until the choked portion. The overall length of the actual barrel is 15" or so by my measurement. So my question is, is this normal for this particular type of barrel? I've been shooting airguns for around 35 years and firearms almost as long. I've never seen a configuration of rifling/bore diameter that is like this so I don't think it's right.

Thoughts?

Picture because pictures are more interesting.

1586734525_6383510025e93a5bd2bb862.93360788.jpg

 
Unless some WIZZ BANG new design from the daystate folks who own Brocock ? .... somethings amiss IMO.

While we de see time to time choked barrels machined the wrong way around with choke at breech ... OUPS !

Our Air Gun barrels remain a constant bore diameter from breech to start of choke, which give or take becomes the last inch or so before exiting.
 
as I was pulling the plastic jag back through the bore without a patch once I got past the choked portion of the muzzle end of the barrel the jag had very light drag until I got to about 9" from the breech where drag increased a uniform amount until reaching the breech/chamber. It feels like after the first 9" or so of the barrel the bore diameter increases slightly until the choked portion. The overall length of the actual barrel is 15" or so by my measurement. So my question is, is this normal for this particular type of barrel? I've been shooting airguns for around 35 years and firearms almost as long. I've never seen a configuration of rifling/bore diameter that is like this so I don't think it's right.

Bad Lighting:

I've seen barrels used in .22 RF guns where 2-3 inches after the breach the bore opened very slightly for about 2-3 inches and then there was a gradual choke from there all the way to the crown...Nevertheless, there barrels never made it to serious BR competition and soon disappeared and this happened some 15-18 years ago...The idea back then emerged from centerfire rifles using BARNES and similar bullets that shoot better with a "jump" vs. touching the lands (The jump was some .030 to .040" before the lands).

I haven't heard nor seen any airgun barrel with those characteristics and since you are disclosing that the choke is at the end of the barrel in the crown side, this fact eliminates the possibility of a barrel that was machined/installed backwards...I suggest that before calling the manufacturer, to shoot the gun and to see how it shoots, then after shooting whatever the results call the manufacturer and ask about this issue..It could be a defect or it could be some new technology we don't know and you want to know which one is it. If it shoots average or bad and after talking to the manufacturer you find out that it is a defect, you learned something and they will take care of the problem; If the issue is intentional and the gun doesn't shoot, you then want to discuss alternatives with the manufacturer...If it shoots, you learned some new technology that will be an asset if you disclose it here in the forum.

Best regards,

AZ


 
If you're getting one inch groups at 50 yards at least theres hope since you haven't even tried shooting the traditionally more accurate pellets the 8.44gr and 10.34gr JSBs and Air Arms variants and Crosman 10.5 Ultra mag Domes and specifically the Premiers in the 7.9 and 10.5 in the brown boxes at 50 yards yet and single load them when testing. YO!
 
I also have to tell you that you may need to break in your gun a bit more. Have you run 1000 shots yet? YO!

I have well over 1K rounds through the gun. At least 4 tins total so probably 2.5K at this point. I'll order up another selection of pellets as you suggest and try those out. In my other thread I posted a pic of a target I recently shot at 25 yards and single loaded the pellets. I don't know if you've had a chance to see that one. Check it out and let me know what you think.
 
If you're getting one inch groups at 50 yards at least theres hope since you haven't even tried shooting the traditionally more accurate pellets the 8.44gr and 10.34gr JSBs and Air Arms variants and Crosman 10.5 Ultra mag Domes and specifically the Premiers in the 7.9 and 10.5 in the brown boxes at 50 yards yet and single load them when testing. YO!

as I was pulling the plastic jag back through the bore without a patch once I got past the choked portion of the muzzle end of the barrel the jag had very light drag until I got to about 9" from the breech where drag increased a uniform amount until reaching the breech/chamber. It feels like after the first 9" or so of the barrel the bore diameter increases slightly until the choked portion. The overall length of the actual barrel is 15" or so by my measurement. So my question is, is this normal for this particular type of barrel? I've been shooting airguns for around 35 years and firearms almost as long. I've never seen a configuration of rifling/bore diameter that is like this so I don't think it's right.

Bad Lighting:

I've seen barrels used in .22 RF guns where 2-3 inches after the breach the bore opened very slightly for about 2-3 inches and then there was a gradual choke from there all the way to the crown...Nevertheless, there barrels never made it to serious BR competition and soon disappeared and this happened some 15-18 years ago...The idea back then emerged from centerfire rifles using BARNES and similar bullets that shoot better with a "jump" vs. touching the lands (The jump was some .030 to .040" before the lands).

I haven't heard nor seen any airgun barrel with those characteristics and since you are disclosing that the choke is at the end of the barrel in the crown side, this fact eliminates the possibility of a barrel that was machined/installed backwards...I suggest that before calling the manufacturer, to shoot the gun and to see how it shoots, then after shooting whatever the results call the manufacturer and ask about this issue..It could be a defect or it could be some new technology we don't know and you want to know which one is it. If it shoots average or bad and after talking to the manufacturer you find out that it is a defect, you learned something and they will take care of the problem; If the issue is intentional and the gun doesn't shoot, you then want to discuss alternatives with the manufacturer...If it shoots, you learned some new technology that will be an asset if you disclose it here in the forum.

Best regards,

AZ


Here's a target I shot yesterday, indoors, 25 yards, single loaded the pellets. Numbers are the pellet weight and the pellet head diameter as I measured a sample of 50 and averaged them on the spot. Indeed, the barrel isn't installed backwards, all other features are where they're supposed to be. The choke at the muzzle is of the appropriate length etc. It just opens up for a good 5-6" before tightening up to what I can only assume is the correct bore diameter. In my opinion it shoots poorly compared to what I expect. But maybe I'm just expecting too much from this brand/pricepoint of an air rifle. Frankly it should be shooting sub MOA at a minimum and pushing 1/2 MOA at 50 yards with perfect conditions. My centerfire bolt guns all hold 1/2 MOA at 200 yards no problem and I'm capable of doing that off of a bipod and rear bag. And I do understand that shooting air rifles requires a completely different touch than firearms- I've been shooting airguns for 35+ years.

Like I said before this is really weird and unexpected so I reached out to this forum community which quite frankly has been absolutely awesome with their openness and willingness to help. Extremely friendly, which is a pleasant surprise.

1586755439_5708056035e93f76f204a35.91139937.jpg

 
Your best pictured groups look to be .25”, which is MOA. Like Vetmx mentioned maybe some of these pellets (lighter ones) don’t like being sent at certain velocity ranges? Also the shooter is a major part of the equation, the gun might be able to do MOA all day long. Is the shooter able to do the same...? not if he/she is human. Seems like your on the right track. The Brococks are known accurate shooters, it is a solid platform with a proven track record. Maintaining MOA accuracy out to 100 yards consistently is much, much harder than some shooters think. MOA accuracy might be easier to achieve with larger calibers. But the shooter is always a big part of that equation...
 
Your best pictured groups look to be .25”, which is MOA. Like Vetmx mentioned maybe some of these pellets (lighter ones) don’t like being sent at certain velocity ranges? Also the shooter is a major part of the equation, the gun might be able to do MOA all day long. Is the shooter able to do the same...? not if he/she is human. Seems like your on the right track. The Brococks are known accurate shooters, it is a solid platform with a proven track record. Maintaining MOA accuracy out to 100 yards consistently is much, much harder than some shooters think. MOA accuracy might be easier to achieve with larger calibers. But the shooter is always a big part of that equation...

Agreed that the shooter is a big part of the system. That said, I can consistently shoot 1/4 MOA with my centerfire rifles. I understand that PCPs (spring piston guns even more so) have a very different shot cycle and much increased lock time and projectile dwell time so technique is even more critical than would otherwise be the case.
 
Here's a target I shot yesterday, indoors, 25 yards, single loaded the pellets. Numbers are the pellet weight and the pellet head diameter as I measured a sample of 50 and averaged them on the spot. Indeed, the barrel isn't installed backwards, all other features are where they're supposed to be. The choke at the muzzle is of the appropriate length etc. It just opens up for a good 5-6" before tightening up to what I can only assume is the correct bore diameter. In my opinion it shoots poorly compared to what I expect. But maybe I'm just expecting too much from this brand/pricepoint of an air rifle. Frankly it should be shooting sub MOA at a minimum and pushing 1/2 MOA at 50 yards with perfect conditions. My centerfire bolt guns all hold 1/2 MOA at 200 yards no problem and I'm capable of doing that off of a bipod and rear bag. And I do understand that shooting air rifles requires a completely different touch than firearms- I've been shooting airguns for 35+ years.

Like I said before this is really weird and unexpected so I reached out to this forum community which quite frankly has been absolutely awesome with their openness and willingness to help. Extremely friendly, which is a pleasant surprise.

1586755439_5708056035e93f76f204a35.91139937.jpg

Badlighting:

We will need to know average velocities for the groups you shot in order to be able to understand better the issues...

You seem to be measuring the heads of your pellets with calipers....DON'T!...Calipers do not provide you a good reliable number but most important is the fact that the flat sides of the calipers tend to flatten the sides on the heads and this fact destroys any possible precision. Get a PELLET GAUGE, those are cheap and a very good investment if you intend to head size your pellets for most accuracy.

Your gun shot 2 groups that are acceptable with JSB 13.6 gr...It seems to be that those 2 groups are around 1/4" c.t.c. or less and that means you are at 1 MOA at 100 Yards (Theoretically). Keep in mind that that 1 MOA is the precision that FX and other companies target on their guns, so you are not so way off and anyone telling you that .500" at 50 yards is not good enough ask them to shoot 2 consecutive 10 shot groups to prove their point!...Don't believe Internet marksmen, see what competitors and champions shoot at competitions. 

In general, those 13.6 gr. pellets like to be pushed harder that 10.3's and 8.4's...In my experience the general sweet spot lies from around 760 to 840 fps...Of course, your gun/barrel will have the last word and these numbers I am disclosing are merely a ball park for the sweet spot...As an example: I currently have a RAW TM-1000 that loves to shoot them at 820-840 fps. and by comparison a Steyr LG-110 likes 760 to 780 -785 fps Max...If you lower the velocity on the RAW or increase it in the Steyr the guns will not shoot them satisfactorily for a BR match. Bottom line: use a chrony and get your velocities so we all know where you are.

Seeing those groups at 25 Yards I wouldn't be so much concerned about the barrel, I would try tuning for velocity and efficiency of the gun...Note: The "Harmonics Tuning" is not the right wording for what they do on those videos claiming harmonics tuning...Harmonics tuning is much more complex procedure that matching a pellet to a gun but this is a good start. When you harmonically tune a gun, you will never reach a 100% tuning stage, but when you approach a good level of tuning at around 85% or upwards, your gun will shoot ANY pellet at any velocity without having to mess with your regulator, valve spring (dwell) ports...Then head sizes become transparent and your gun will shoot 4.49's as good as 4.53's and 4.54's...This tuning procedure (harmonics) requires very high tech equipment that is extremely costly and the technician needs to know how to interpret the data and know what to do.... In any case, keep in mind watching some of those abundant harmonics tuning videos from the "experts" as you may need to follow a similar procedure to refining the tune on your gun. 

I (we in this thread) could help you better if we knew what kind of barrel you are using: Is it a proprietary Brocock barrel or is it a LW either in their 12 groove or Polygon configurations?...If it is proprietary of the brand, Brocock is owned by Beretta and if that is the case then the barrel was manufactured most likely in Valtrompia or Brescia; Gardone no longer manufactures barrels for any Beretta guns. Beretta originally used CZ barrels that were hammer forged in Czechoslovakia, EXCELLENT barrels if you ask me...Given the fact that Brocock is an English gun ,they may very well be using a BSA barrel that is also manufactured with very good tight specs. All of the barrels mentioned are very good but all have very different tastes for pellets and velocities. The different bore choke configurations combined with the profiles of rifling (lands and grooves) and the deepness of the rifling are critical. So if you can, call your vendor and ask him about the barrel...In the meantime count the grooves/lands at the crown and provide us that number.

At what power do you want to shoot your gun? What is the barrel length? Are you suing a moderator or muzzle brake? Do you know what is the BAR pressure on your regulator?

Best regards,

AZ 




 
Hmmm.... weird that you guys mostly seem not to have noticed the tight-loose-tight syndrome for ag barrels. I've seen a LOT of them and some even shot pretty good but were maybe more pellet sensitive. My approach any more is to try to lap out a little of the breech end tightness before even going elsewhere. I think @DrPutz has the most pragmatic approach as that's where I've personally seen the best gains.

AZ has some good advice as well but Brocock is owned by the Marocchi family which also owns Breda Shotguns.... not Beretta, plus Daystate and Brocock. The barrels are all LWs with the HP versions being polygonal.

Bob
 
Hmmm.... weird that you guys mostly seem not to have noticed the tight-loose-tight syndrome for ag barrels. I've seen a LOT of them and some even shot pretty good but were maybe more pellet sensitive. My approach any more is to try to lap out a little of the breech end tightness before even going elsewhere. I think @DrPutz has the most pragmatic approach as that's where I've personally seen the best gains.

AZ has some good advice as well but Brocock is owned by the Marocchi family which also owns Breda Shotguns.... not Beretta, plus Daystate and Brocock. The barrels are all LWs with the HP versions being polygonal.

Bob

Bob, with that being said. Have you ever had a LW barrel like the above? The two I've owned were uniform all the way to the choke and shot several pellets well. If I were the op, I'd send it back and try one more time. Id hate to have a rifle with different power levels to choose from and only shoot one pellet well.