Weighing pellets

I started tinkering about weight variations, in the way, where that +1 grain goes on the pellet section geometry?

If sticks to a skirt there is a bigger chance being not detected before use and a bigger chance as well getting a bigger fristion resistance inside a barrrel and a bigger chance of stripping of a lead deposite...???

I just had a situation with my latest batch order (May 2021 I believe) .25 MK2s...the head of a pellets doesn't fit a gauge which I ordered in a Spring 2020.
 
Thanks for the discussion everyone. I have been a power burner my entire life, but I'm new to this sport. And I am finding that shooting airguns can be somewhat challenging at times. Recently I started sorting by weight, and after watching a couple YouTube videos by some to the top shooters from RMAC, I ordered some gauges. As a powder burner I have collected more measuring do-dads that I care to count, some helped, some didn't. So once again thank you for the discussion and for easing the future frustration of shooting airguns.
 
Cole…I’m 100% sure you could not sort out that flyer. The problem is in the barrel.

About 5 years ago I had some custom polygons made that could not be beaten at 25m benchrest in their first month of use. Not long after that they would still shoot high x 250s…but would interject a sideways pellet every couple cards. There was nothing that could be done to prevent those once the cycle began. Many of the guys that owned one believed they could sort those flyers away. Nobody ever could. If they bought a new barrel they would have about a month of heavy use before it would start the ugly sideways flyer routine. I spent a lot of time with a borescope shooting one pellet and scoping….one more, scope again. I watched a lead deposit develop at the choke and when the lead deposit was stripped off in one shot….you got your big flier. Turn it would go on to shoot xs until it built that deposit up again. Sometimes the deposit would be very slight and would disappear in a shot with no flier. But every time it got large and was stripped in one shot you got something atrocious. Every time. The only solution was to cut off the choke and re choke it lighter. The problem was that they didn’t produce the same accuracy. I still know of one guy shooting one of these barrels and he sometimes gets an astounding 3 card agg…but usually he will have a great run that gets spoiled by one awful shot. He is an avid sorter and simply believes that he missed one bad pellet in his routine.

Mike 

Mike,

1) Can you suggest ways to reduce the potential and/or frequency of lead build-up fliers, besides re-choking the barrel? For example, does lubing pellets help?

2) Does the lead build-up issue also cause wider vs narrower groups? I've been trying to narrow my 27 yard benchrest groups to under 2.3 mm distance from the bullseye in "no wind" conditions; this is roughly equivalent to 0.20 inch 5-shot CTC groups. I've stabilized my .177 Pulsar as much as possible, shoot JSB 8.44 Premium Exacts, and screen them with a very tight criteria of weight, head size, yrrah roll, skirt and head inspection, and even the dynamic concentricity using a Lotte tool described by NoLimits. But I can't get smaller groups. And with other pellets the groups are bigger. So I don't think the issue is pellet variance. Maybe barrel lead build-up? Maybe barrel harmonics? Ideas?
 
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Lubing can help. I doubt it will increase accuracy, but it might preserve it for a longer period.

That just may be all you can get out of that barrel without reworking it. Factory barrels are just loaded into a CNC and machined from their OD. ODs are not concentric with IDs….unless you get super lucky, and even then they are not as concentric as I would accept. Starting a pellet crooked is not going yield the best accuracy….no matter how much you sort.

Sorting won’t fix a barrel with a leade or a crown that is poorly machined or non concentric to the bore. If you have a factory gun…you can be 99.9% sure the leade is sub optimal.

Mike 
 
The idea that one mechanical component can cause fliers while a second mechanical component literally bearing on the first component can not certainly is a novel concept. Does anyone have anything other than opinion to support that theory? Mind you I found the experience recounted about the barrel fouling informative but it doesn't prove pellets can't cause fliers.
 
I’ve noticed that if someone sorts pellets and does well at a match it’s very significant and is direct proof of the effectiveness of sorting ….but if guys that don’t do anything to their pellets do well….it doesn’t mean anything. :)

Mike

I have noticed that people who have zero evidence to support the most absurd positions frequently resort to snide comments when asked to justify their position.

Look all I did was ask you a question. Do you win so often that you think everyone should simply accept your opinion without question? Did you win at the recent matches?
 
Actually…you asked me a question that was in reference to what someone else said that I said.

Im certain I’ve never once in my life said that a pellet couldn’t produce a flier. That would be silly.

I started building rifles in 2014. I began shooting the rifles I build competitively in 2015. I’ve attended 6 National championships in FT and BR since then and made the podium at every one without sorting a single pellet. I’ve even won some FT Grand Prix’s and set a bunch of BR records. I must admit that many of those records have been re broken by others that shoot my rifles since then, though. I’ve built the rifles for who knows how many FT and BR National champs ….and even some world Champs (recent, actually current) have used to to help them get where they did. I think I’ve done ok…and I think I personally know pretty much everyone in the USA that competes or has competed successfully in precision BR and FT. Lots of those people do and have done quite well without sorting pellets too. But hey…that’s probably all of us just getting lucky. I can only imagine the scores we could have shot if we had sorted our pellets.

Mike 



 
Yeah? So how many of those rifles have been shooting sorted pellets?

You see even your fine rifles MIGHT be benefitting from sorted pellets.

Making rifles teaches you how to make rifles. It doesn't teach you a whole lot about pellets... or common courtesy.

Sorry to have questioned your obviously prodigious knowledge. I did not realize I was talking to royalty.

😉


 

Well then, one would expect him to be more open minded and a little less sensitive to being questioned. He seems quite capable of defending his own assertions. No need for you to circle the wagons but since you have, perhaps you have some evidence that supports his assertions, other than, "Well Mike says."?

I'll go read your link and get back to this post

So I've read that link. Here is what I take away from it that seems most significant to me:

Quote: I'll throw my 2 cents in here and assure everyone it will be worth every penny. :)

Which seems to suggest he is either having a bad day or his patience with the "common folk" is no longer what it once was.

Quote: Long story short on rolling......the pellets that were classified by rolling were not actually the size graduations that I thought. I tested them in their respective group sizes....and always seemed to find a particular group that shot the best. I have no real explanation for that.

So he has demonstrated for himself that rolling pellets works. He just never has figured out why, apparently. He goes on to say that anecdotal evidence convinced him otherwise. He got beat by someone that he believed was not sorting pellets (more on that below). He also states he does not know what property of pellets, rolling measures.

Then he tells us the method he uses to sort pellets.

Quote: Right now.....I buy a tin of every batch of a particular pellet I can find. I shoot a few cards with each one indoors. If I find a great shooting tin, I order all I can of that particular lot. That is the extent of my sorting these days.

So sorting doesn't work, except when it works? Apparently he has found two sorting methods which work. On the one hand he can't figure out why the method works (rolling) on the other hand he has not yet come to understand (even though he names it) the method he uses is still sorting.

There are any number of ways to SELECT pellets which shoot better than OTHER pellets. His method is to buy pellets which shoot better in his rifle. He just doesn't realize he is actually SELECTING pellets after all.

Anyone who shoots will tell you there are pellets their rifle "prefers". The same is obviously true about any mechanical system. One man sorts his pellets by buying certain lot numbers and does not realize he is sorting pellets. Then he asserts that the other fellow who sorts pellets is wasting his time.

Like I said, making rifles teaches one about making rifles. In this particular instance, I see a man who is relying more upon his intuition than upon his facts. That's not a character flaw, not an insult, and not a question about his skill.




 
Mike,

I greatly appreciate you sharing your experience and expertise. It has provided great guidance, even if I don't like the implications for what I need to do.


Just make sure you understand all the implications. Sometimes even the most experienced fail to fully understand a topic. There is one thing you can almost always count upon. It is the idea that there is almost always more than one way to skin a cat.
 
Some pellets work better than others. Nobody yet understands why. One thing I’m personally sure of is that rolling, air gauging, weighing, or using a aperture device won’t bring a sub par tin up to the level of a good one.

If I can get beat up by you to save one person from spending all their extra time sorting pellets for a competition instead of practicing or learning how to do something that will surely help their rifle such as machining barrels…then it’s all worth it.


Mike 
 
Some pellets work better than others. Nobody yet understands why. One thing I’m personally sure of is that rolling, air gauging, weighing, or using a aperture device won’t bring a sub par tin up to the level of a good one.

If I can get beat up by you to save one person from spending all their extra time sorting pellets for a competition instead of practicing or learning how to do something that will surely help their rifle such as machining barrels…then it’s all worth it.


Mike

Beat up? What in the world makes you think you are being "beat up"?

Mike, it is possible to be a genius AND be wrong at the same time.

You sort pellets. You do that your way. Some other fellow uses your barrels and sorts them his way. Your opinion is highly regarded by most of the people in the industry. That doesn't make it infallible.

Neither does that give you the right to talk down to people who disagree with your position. You don't win every match.

We all make mistakes. The great ones own theirs. Any man making barrels is wise to take the position that most fliers are the fault of the barrel. That makes him a better barrel maker.


 
After writing my last response yesterday evening which directly answered your question about who I am and my personal performance history and how that applies to my stance on pellet sorting…..I took a moment to think about how you would probably respond to that. My conclusion was that you would likely allude to some sort of arrogance on my part. I woke this morning and got a big smile as I read your response that was just as I imagined it. 

You have added absolutely nothing of any value to this thread. You are simply trolling. 

Mike 
 
Inevitably these discussions seem to devolve into arguing a false dichotomy of either "sorting works" or "sorting is a waste of time". There's plenty of room for everybody to find happiness somewhere in between. My experience has been that it helps with tins that are producing mediocre results but I have never sorted my way to groups that compare to my best batches of pellets shot straight from the tin. It's just that those magic batches are elusive to the hobbyist like me...I don't have the money to buy up vast amounts of pellets to try out, nor the industry connections or sponsorships to sample different batches. So I cherish my good fortune when I come upon a truly stellar batch, and sometimes sort to make the best of what I have when the pellet gods have smoted me.

So if I am unable to sort my way to nirvana, am I saying it is impossible? No. But logically it gets ever more difficult to realize a demonstrable improvement the better your starting point. If I'm looking to cull bad pellets to get sufficient 30yd pesting accuracy, getting the group size from 1" down to 1/2", I have a better shot than if I'm trying to coax a 240 benchrest score up to a 250.

Each person has to find their own happy place that balances expectations against the effort invested. That is, an acceptable cost:benefit relationship. Is it worthwhile for you or is it a waste of time? Or do you have a place for a little of both?

I sincerely hope smart people continue to try to understand how sorting can be made more successful, require less tedium, etc. Meanwhile I am at peace with having found my balance point. I have no interest in painstakingly studying pellets with optical comparators, or rolling them, or spinning them, or air gauging them, or weighing each one to a hundredth of a grain, or measuring each head or skirt to a hundredth of a millimeter. For me it's just not worth it. This is supposed to be fun. That stuff makes it less fun.

Let's have fun.
 
"You have added absolutely nothing of any value to this thread. You are simply trolling. "

I agree with Mike on this one. While you make some valid points, I don't personally know or have seen evidence of anyone having worked harder or longer to understand why pellets can look good and not be good, as Mike. Does that make him infallible,... no.... but it sure makes the voice of experience valid. 

While we all sort in some manner, whether it be feel in the barrel, tossing bent pellets, batch selection, or more extreme measures, nitpicking at someone who is trying to share good experience seems to show a preference for conflict and not positive contribution.

For my own part, I HAVE had some success with optical sorting but not much with measuring and weighing. I HAVE NOT been able to find good consistency from a bad batch through sorting, but maybe reduce the magnitude of the inconsistency some. Sometimes we're stuck with what we have and sorting may move our scores up a little but a bad batch is unlikely to take us to the gold medal, no matter what we do. Is it worth it.... that's for the individual to decide.

Bob
 
Well said, Jason.

My main objection is always to the idea that one must sort their pellets with some sort of device to have any chance of success in competition. This probably gets said at least once a day by someone somewhere on a forum. If nothing else , I’m concrete evidence….along with a lot of others I know , that the statement is certainly false.

Mike