Weighing Pellets is the sixth decimal to far out?

[Smitty911]

Ok, so I'm new to Air Rifles. I read way to much and get way to involved in somethings that might not matter. So without my rifle (Back at AoA for an air leak) I went and started weighing some pellets with this:

That little gem of a scale cost about $30,000.00 but it reads out to the sixth decimal place. Here are some numbers I got:
1.647085
1.645270
1.647945
1.648537
1.645902
At which point I figured that the manufacture JSB has no idea of what is in the tin. So I started using this:

And measured these -

So the data told me that out of 350 Pellets - that only FIVE (5) of the pellets measured were actually the claimed weight. The stack on the left side are the ones with damage to the skirts or other issues, about 100 of them.

So is it even worth the trouble without going to the extremes?

Smitty

 

[bubblerboy64]

if you are an Olympic class shooter it's probably well worth it . 

 

[Richardo]

For me, 6 decimal points would be too much. I weigh then place the pellets in batches of similar weights. I then shoot a batch at a time. I am guessing that this assists with consistency, but I can’t prove it one way or the other. 

 

[DHart]

I would round to the third decimal place, myself. But suggest you go to whatever extremes you feel you need to go to, or not.

Some would say that washing the pellets is the most significant thing that you can do. Then sorting by weight and examining for flaws. Some people go far beyond that.

And many people enjoy the sport without doing any of this. Just do what level you feel you need to do to be happy.

Good news is that you seem to have plenty of available time for this wonderful hobby! Getting down to details can help a lot.

With the Red Wolf .22HP, I’ve been testing out a variety of pellet weights, each at LOW, MED, and HIGH power, at 48 yards, to find the sweet spot velocity-wise, for each pellet weight that I have (JSB 15.89, JSB 18.13, H&N 18.52, H&N 21.4, and JSB 25.4.) That’s one great thing about the Red Wolf... the three different power levels, set electronically.

Probably best to do outdoor accuracy testing at no more than 30 to 35 yards, to minimize environmental influences on the results.

 

[milacik]

Those 5 numbers listed were the same pellet repeatedly measured to prove that the measurement is repeatable Or just some random pellets? It seems indeed 3digits after the decimal point is OK. Fantastic. Would not bother with any more, no gloves or tweezers used....Now shoot all these groups at separate crosshair targets at long distance in windless situation and see how much the POI is affected. Finish the experiment properly. You started right.

edit: why did you stop using the Mettler Toledo, don’t be dramatic they costs only around $2000-3000

if those groups were done by that second $hitty scale, just forget it.

...need to find a new friend with obsessive compulsive disorder who can do these type of measurements

edit: I changed my mind what I was saying. If you have such a damaged tin with so many rejects/ damaged pellets, there is no point shooting it for this kind of experiment.

FYI they dont come damaged from the manufacturer like that. But they are soft indeed.

if you mishandle them, they will not print small groups. Weight up and down what do you think what has more influence on POI

 

[Spray1Mark]

The weight on the tin is the nominal weight, with a .3 grain difference and a 30FPS spread that accounts for approx 1/4" trajectory difference at 50 yards.

When you can read the wind to within a 1/4" or you only ever shoot in a still air tunnel I would then worry about it LOL!

 

[Smitty911]

Richardo and Spray1Mark,

Good points, I'm pretty sure I can't dope for the wind to 1/4" and won't be shooting inside a still air tunnel, so I'll group them by .3 grains. Good advice thanks.

DHart,

I washed those pellet prior to weighing, upon inspection (Naked Eye, I thought about using a Scanning Electron Microscope but it would definitely be OVERKILL, although I do have some 400X fiber optic inspection microscope that aren't being used right now. ). So you have different pellet weights and are shooting each of the weights to figure out the power levels that each of them work best at? I'll assume that pellet shape will also play a factor for each of the power settings as well.

Those 5 numbers listed were the same pellet repeatedly measured to prove that the measurement is repeatable Or just some random pellets? It seems indeed 3digits after the decimal point is OK. Fantastic. Would not bother with any more, no gloves or tweezers used....Now shoot all these groups at separate crosshair targets at long distance in windless situation and see how much the POI is affected. Finish the experiment properly. You started right.

edit: why did you stop using the Mettler Toledo, don’t be dramatic they costs only around $2000-3000

if those groups were done by that second $hitty scale, just forget it.

...need to find a new friend with obsessive compulsive disorder who can do these type of measurements

edit: I changed my mind what I was saying. If you have such a damaged tin with so many rejects/ damaged pellets, there is no point shooting it for this kind of experiment.

FYI they dont come damaged from the manufacturer like that. But they are soft indeed.

if you mishandle them, they will not print small groups. Weight up and down what do you think what has more influence on POI

Those were all different pellets. I know you can purchase a Mettler Toledo for less than $4k, that one was significantly more, I saw the PO. It's used to measure the corrosive effects of gasses on pure copper samples every three days for a test we do at my work. So it accuracy and repeatability are down in the 0.000005 (according to the specs). The rest were done with the other scale, and it's not very good admittedly. 

People with OCD can tell others with OCD because we say "We have CDO", that's alphabetically correct. 
That tin, I dropped when they fell out of the box the rifle was shipped in. I didn't think they would be that sensitive, we do drop testing where I work also. I'll open the other tins that didn't get drop tested and start over with a better scale that reads to the 0.001 and start over. I'll print up some small targets and check my work. 

This could take a minute or two to complete. I might have to work on a system that picks up the pellets by the heads, use a camera measurement system to inspect the skirt to ensure that they are round, if not move to different bin, acceptable concentricity and roundness will move to scale for sorting to the closest 0.001 grain, normal bell curve should most around the manufactured claim +/- 1.5 grain nominal weight, shoot the groups, see if it matters.  Figure 3 seconds cycle times, 30 minutes sort time per 350 tin. Camera system and programming 5k, servo motors and controllers, 3K, programming and testing 5K, so for about 15k (normal cost overruns) I can have a sorting machine that will group the pellets into batches that won't make a difference based on the guy behind the trigger, PERFECT, I'll start later today with a Scope of Work and see what my Financial Planner (wife) will approve.

Thanks, I'll wash and sort the pellets I have to the closest third decimal and do some shooting.

Smitty (the one with CDO)

 

[milacik]

Smith I agree with what you said, the average absolute weight is incorrect, but who cares if the manufacturers does not, I see the calibration is still valid so I assume we can trust the result on the mettler.

Need to ask JSB to scrap all those million stickers they printed now

 

[AirNGasman]

You should probably sort to the tenth decimal-place in weight, then sort to the hundreth millimeter in head size, then wash, dry and lube the pellets... then you won't have to worry at all about all that nasty SHOOTING!

I made a very successful field-target career of beating techno-retentives by shooting JSB pellets straight from the tins and devoting all the time I saved in retentive nonsense to TRIGGER TIME. But that's just me.

Me,

Og 

 

[Xbowsniper]

I've found that if I go to 2 decimal points, (my scale does 8.02, 8.04, 8.06, etc.), that is more than enough to get a "good batch" of pellets that I will use for a match. With a nominal pellet weight of 8.44, I will use 8.42, 8.44, and 8.46. Then I'll check headsize, then, depending upon the pellet, roll them. I've greatly reduced my flyers from 5-6 shots out of a 60+ shot match, to zero to one. In my eyes, there isn't a reason to go much finer. It's also good to note that it isn't as critical for larger caliber weights to be as fine as smaller, lighter caliber weights. .4 grains difference with a 50 grain pellet doesn't mean as much as .4 grains difference with a 9 grain pellet.



Tom Holland 

 

[DHart]

I've found that if I go to 2 decimal points, (my scale does 8.02, 8.04, 8.06, etc.), that is more than enough to get a "good batch" of pellets that I will use for a match. With a nominal pellet weight of 8.44, I will use 8.42, 8.44, and 8.46. Then I'll check headsize, then, depending upon the pellet, roll them. I've greatly reduced my flyers from 5-6 shots out of a 60+ shot match, to zero to one. In my eyes, there isn't a reason to go much finer. It's also good to note that it isn't as critical for larger caliber weights to be as fine as smaller, lighter caliber weights. .4 grains difference with a 50 grain pellet doesn't mean as much as .4 grains difference with a 9 grain pellet.



Tom Holland

Tom... what you say makes good sense and it sounds like your experience really backs it up.

What I find especially interesting is that in your experience, one might commonly expect to have on average, perhaps, one flier every 10 shots or so if shooting straight from the tin. And that with sorting by weight and headsize and perhaps rolling, one may not experience a flier more than once, perhaps, in 60 shots.

Does your process involve washing the pellets to remove as much fine lead grit as possible?

 

[MScottLeeman]

AirNGasman...You said it! As incredible as it sounds (And this is just my humble opinion...please don't crucify me!) actually SHOOTING THE AIRGUN seems,to me,to have the most profoundly positive effect as far as improving scores and shrinking groups! And Personally,I find it Incredibly FUN!

 

[DHart]

AirNGasman...You said it! As incredible as it sounds (And this is just my humble opinion...please don't crucify me!) actually SHOOTING THE AIRGUN seems, to me, to have the most profoundly positive effect as far as improving scores and shrinking groups! And Personally,I find it Incredibly FUN!

Strange. But. True!

There seems to be a certain satisfaction one gets when actually shooting these air guns, something that is elusive when just talking about them and fussing over scales and spreadsheets.

BUT, it ALL goes together magnificently, doesn't it! SO much fun!

 

[Kinetic45]

Each year I buy a batch pellets to shoot that year ... this last year I bought JSB 33.95 MkII, .25, 3000ea.

I wash to remove dust and flakes then dip in 30:1 synthetic 2-cycle oil mixed with E85 which leaves just enough oil to keep corrosion down but does not really 'lube' the pellets then spent about two weeks of evenings sorting the pellets by 0.1gr while watching TV/cable. I do no roll my pellets or gauge /size head or skirts but as I weigh I cull any obviously damaged pellets.

Out of the 3K I got weights as low as 32.1 (30 or so) and on the heavy side up to 36.8 (around 10).

I got a weight peak at 33.7 with about 700 pellets and another peak at 34.4 with 600 or so pellets (basically would graph like a two hump camel's back with a shallow valley between peaks or a double bell curve). The ONLY way this works to get enough of the same weight to shoot only that weight on a day is to buy BIG lots of pellets.

FYI - I have a shooting range behind of a 140 foot long building with a 6 foot board fence running 3 feet behind that so it is enclosed alley open to the top - basically no wind so great shooting. There are security lights along the back so it is lit at night too, haha.

I found that shooting 5 eight shot groups with my WARP Cobra {4500 fill, 2400 regulator set, 863 FPS w/ ES 1.8%} with unsorted pellets got me groups averaging around .6 to .7 inch BUT I found it does not mater what the weight is, if they were all the same weight the 40 shots (in the five groups) were all less than 3/8 with basically no flyers.

 

[Smitty911]

All,

Thanks for the feedback, I was looking for real world differences and where to spend the time. So in order of importance it appears to be:

1. Shoot - more time behind the gun will yield the most benefit (I'll assume bench first to learn the gun and build confidence, followed by other shooting positions and then conditions) 
2. Wash and sort pellets to nearest 0.1 or 0.01 decimal place dependent on CDO level.
3. Have fun - Got it.

Being that I have no real world experience with the rifles, looking to get the most bang for the buck. I like the idea of an "annual buy" of pellets, but I have no idea how often or how many I would need in which weights at this point.

Smitty

 

[addertooth]

I tend to weigh them and put them in a sorting box by weight in 1/10th grain groups. (note grain and not grams)

I do a visual inspection followed by a head sizing. The ones which pass the visual and head sizing then are put into marked tins.

I use marked tins which are a central weight, plus and minus 1/10th of a grain. As an example 33.7, 33.8 and 33.9 grain.

Like many people who are comfortable with math, I had expected a bell curve for the weight, but no single tin ever produced that. Some had a distribution which emphasized lighter weights, and others heavier weights, but none of the tins produced a bell curve.

Anything heavier than 34.1 or lighter than 33.4 I treated as a heavy/light cull, and not suitable for precision shooting.

 

[Smitty911]

I tend to weigh them and put them in a sorting box by weight in 1/10th grain groups. (note grain and not grams)

I do a visual inspection followed by a head sizing. The ones which pass the visual and head sizing then are put into marked tins.

I use marked tins which are a central weight, plus and minus 1/10th of a grain. As an example 33.7, 33.8 and 33.9 grain.

Like many people who are comfortable with math, I had expected a bell curve for the weight, but no single tin ever produced that. Some had a distribution which emphasized lighter weights, and others heavier weights, but none of the tins produced a bell curve.

Anything heavier than 34.1 or lighter than 33.4 I treated as a heavy/light cull, and not suitable for precision shooting.

I hadn't even gotten to head size yet. So which is more important? or are they both equal, or am I overthinking this

My understanding would be something like this:
1. Each rifled barrel has a particular head diameter that it "LIKES". Engagement to the rifle and lands is my guess.
2. Each rifled barrel has a particular weight of pellet that it "LIKES". Harmonics would be my best guess here.

So there seems to be two thoughts on the subject - do nothing and go shoot, and write off the Flyers, or Wash, Dry, Measure Head Diameter, Sort by Weight 0.01, lube pellet and shoot the groups that work best for matches and hunting and plick with the remainder.

My goal is paper and pest. When shooting pest, I believe in the one shot, one kill motto to be the most humane while dealing with rodents. 

I received my Red Wolf .22HP and Bantam .25 back from AoA last week so I'm off to shoot some and get a feel for these rifles.

Smitty

 

[Xbowsniper]

Smitty,

This is the procedure I go through to get the best possible accuracy out of my given choice of pellet

First, I wash them. Hot water, and Dawn dish detergent. You'll be surprised by how much lead flakes you get at the bottom of the container. If not washed, these lead flakes can be deposited in the barrel, making future shots inaccurate by scoring the head and skirt of the pellet on it's way down the barrel. Washing them also gets off the release agent, which helps the die eject the pellet without getting stuck. Some shooters will then lube them with something to coat the barrel, and reduce fouling. This should be the last thing you do in the sorting process. If a shooter is a novice that has none of the sorting equipment, this is the easiest thing to do to possibly enhance accuracy. It MAY enhance the accuracy of the gun, but not usually. 

Next, I will weigh them, as I described.

Then I will check the headsize with a Pelletgage.

Once checked with a Pelletgage, I then roll them. This insures that the relationship of th pellet skirt and the headsize of all pellets are uniform.

Last, I will lube them, in accordance to what gun they are going into. Some guns require no lube, others a wax lube, and others a synthetic lube.

Next, is to shoot, shoot, and did I mention, SHOOT!!!!

For more information about pellet sorting, you can check out my channel, Field Target Tech on u tube. I have episodes on all of the above described procedures.



Tom Holland 

 

[Smitty911]

Well I took some of the washed and weighed pellet out in the back yard along with my Brocock Bantam .25 Cal.

So I believe well sorted pellets, from what I've read on this thread should get the following (Thanks Spray1Mark).

The weight on the tin is the nominal weight, with a .3 grain difference and a 30FPS spread that accounts for approx 1/4" trajectory difference at 50 yards.

When you can read the wind to within a 1/4" or you only ever shoot in a still air tunnel I would then worry about it LOL!

So modified kneeling, I haven't shot in the kneeling position since I last qualified in the Marine Corps, so 1985 and I'm not as limber and weigh more than I did at that point in my life. 25 Yards to the back of my Block wall. OLD DRY HARD 4"x4" as a target with an Ink dot for a target.

Pull trigger, phump, WHAP, holy moly the sound of the impact is twice as loud as the shot, I think I'm going to like this. So I shoot 18 shots and maintained a whopping 1" group at 25 yards. So back to the bench and either a bi-pod or sandbag. Looks like I won't be worrying about weight or head size until I get my skills tuned back to where they should be.

Looks like those that recommended - Just go shot had it right. I'll be working through a few tins of pellets for now. I'll readdress the weight thing later. Really appreciate the directions provided, I know what I have to get done now.

Smitty

 

[nomojo65]

Tom, my process is very similar to yours w/ CP’s! Only I’ve been truly disappointed with CP’s of late!, the lead dust, flake & debris within the skirt is atrocious!!!, I have one LW 12 groove barrel that really likes those 10.5’s but only die M or 6 (die 6 are some really old pellets!) so much work has to be put into them that it’s really not worth it? For what it’s worth I have only used a wax based lube on these pellets? Which seems to work fine for me? A good lot of jsb 10.3’s are almost as good with less work...