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Veteran Tune is SMOKING 💨

I finally upped my Huma reg pressure in my 22 cal Vet above 170 (to ~173-174 bar). Shot all my Griffin boat tail test ammo last weekend, except for the 40 grainers. They shot real well with my 600mm FX slug liner, but I could only run them around 865fps that day. 

So this week, I decided that I would retune it to see how fast I could get them up to. Harmonics have been a major problem to deal with when shooting 30-36+ grain ammo. I saw that everyone and their mother was sleeving their FX liners with carbon fiber, my first attempt wasn't great - but I realized what I would do next time if I choose to try again.

Knowing that I'd never get these 36-40gr to shoot better than 1.25" @100m with my reg set there, I figured now was the time to stiffen this liner up. So I put together a system using two high quality American made carbon fiber tubes - one thinner one to go around the liner and another thicker high modulus to sleeve that one with. For adhesive, I decided this time I would use Loctite EA E-120HP, aerospace-grade Hysol with a 120-minute working time.

Pain in the ass project, but now this barrel kit feels about as stiff as any other airgun barrels that I have had.

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So now the FX liner is setup better for high power and heavy lead. Now for the ammo, the .217 Griffin 40 grain boat tails are fairly long by airgun "slug" standards in this caliber. When I first saw them, I wondered if they would even fit in the Taipan mags, but sure enough I had just enough room to spare:

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My new valve's PEEK poppet is broken in finally, no slow leakage to deal with, so now all I needed to do was up the reg pressure and figure out how I would crack open the valve (and just long enough) to launch those bad boys faster than I had them going before. To do that, a brass hammer weight is definitely required, along with a heavier hammer spring and (1) a heavier valve spring or (2) valve spring tension. I made a new hammer weight with marine brass, and a rear pre-tension bushing out of Delrin. I made a spring for it that would provide enough muscle to drive it all. 

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The setup I ran before was only good for 165bar. I was anxious to test this over my chrono to see if I would break my Vet's previous 72FPE record..

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First shot - 80FPE!!! Before I even looked at the numbers, I could definitely hear the difference between this and the previous tune 💪

Not bad for a 22 cal Taipan with a 600mm barrel. I still have 11-12bar left on the reg to tap into and another new valve in the works, but for now I'll be humbled and call this good 👍


 
Sweet jebus. Great work. One speculation though...


When I put all your gun data into my calcs, at 165 bar I get 72 fpe, but to get 80 fpe...I need to put in 185 bar...weird. I find it hard to believe you would gain 8 fpe (10%+) from only 8 (5%) bar increase as well....


Well I realized that I had one BIG problem today when I upped the reg pressure. My velocity DROPPED using the previous hammer weight + spring that I was running prior. I turned a new weight and cut down some thicker / larger diameter spring steel, and walla - FULL beast mode 💪💪💪💪💪
 
Nice. I just talked to Derrick today about getting a Veteran or Uragan. Your work is getting me excited! Right on brotha! What size carbon tubes did you use for your system. I just made a carbon fiber sleeve for my FX liner too. I haven’t had a chance to shoot it yet but it’s got to help. I just bought one carbon tube that's held it tightly in place with tape and O-rings for now. If it works, I'll make a more permanent way to affix it. A while back I messed with different O-rings, no O-rings, tape, and other different things to tighten it up. It was inconclusive but now that I've finally settled on one slug and pellet, I'm going to revisit the effects of stiffening the barrel.

Stoti

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Ah so you believe your old setup was limited due to hammer weight/spring combo which unleashed a bit new unfounded power? Would make sense then! Great work, love your mods and ingenuity ;)

Exactly! The previous weight and spring were sufficient for the tune and ammo prior, but not for this reg pressure and ammo. I'm real lucky to have found this other spring and cut it down to this size. There isn't much room in the Vet hammer system to F around with (that'll change in a couple of weeks though, once I finish my SSG and other parts).

I can guarantee that this spring/weight aren't going to work well with lower reg pressures and/or lighter ammo. With lighter slugs (25gr for example), a wuick snap from a heavier spring yields me greater velocities than the hammer weight + longer lighter spring (which yields greater velocity for heavier ammo with the same reg pressure, due to VDT). It's not easy keeping track of the mix and match components per tune!

If you bump the speed up a smidgen to 948.9362465 fps, your muzzle energy in ft-lbs will be twice the projectile weight in grains.

That's nuts! BTW, I maxed them to 974 earlier, 80FPE will be a decent tune for this config 💪

Great job Gino, that thing is screaming!

Nice work !!




Wow brother! Just wow
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Thank you sirs!!!

@stoti - yeah you'd want to consider bonding everything to get the most rigidity and subsequent payoff. There's some decent threads on GTA discussing details. The outer tube that I used was high modulus, bought a 64" tube of that ($137 😭) and 2x 30" standard modulus unidirectional tubes that are a near slip fit over my 22cal liners )on sale for $8.99 each!)I did have to hone out the outer HM tube to fit the uni CF sleeve inside. Bought them all from Rockwest Composites.

UNI-B1-L30 Tube - Unidirectional - 0.345 x 0.380 x 30 Inch

46631-HM Tube - Plain Weave - High Modulus - 0.375 x 0.457 x 64 Inch

Now I would argue that the thinner unidirectional tubes are even STRONGER than those cheap-o "3K" roll wrapped tubes from ebay / Amazon (that like to delaminate easy). I could have bonded my liners with those tubes and called it good, but that HM tubing comes within 0.1mm of the inside of the FX shroud tubes. I wrapped my sleeved liner assembly with a tight wrap of PTFE tape, and it fits snug in the FX shroud, but I can see using the shroud as a permanent sleeve if there's any hint of liner harmonic problems. 638 Loctite, JB Weld, whatever.. it wouldn't be much work at all.
 
What kind of tapes you use around a liner? Thanks

The outside diameter or the outer CF tube epoxied to my liner is ~11.64mm (I think). I wrapped that with a tight layer of Blue Monster PTFE and had to turn the barrel as I installed it into the steel FX barrel sleeve.

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That’s pretty wicked work! Saw this earlier on IG, blown away.... wow. Congrats, well done.

Thanks bud. I'm going to see what happens tomorrow and go from there. I love what you're doing, I can't wait to hear the final results! 

Have a great rest of your weekend! Stoti




Thanks! Anxious to test it later today. I'm not sure if it's possible to hit 100FPE with my 700mm liner, but I might not even try going for 100 until I machine a .224 barrel for it. I'm just humbled to be able to get performance out of this caliber that I wouldn't normally see without using .300!


 
mtnGhost, I went first thing this morning to test this Impact with the carbon fiber tube I attached. I shot for a couple minutes and realized my POI had shifted a lot. I messed with the barrel a bit and got it on paper again. Then I realized that if the carbon fiber tube isn't tensioned and then permanently epoxied, any differences in the amount of tension to the moderator will cause a POI impact shift. Since I know that moderators come loose, get changed and aren't permanent, I've got to affix something on the end of the barrel to put tension on the carbon fiber tube that's independent of the moderator. 

What do you think about using loc tite to attach a small nut to the threads at the end of the liner to keep the tube and barrel under permanent tension and then screwing on the moderator? That way screwing on the moderator will have no ill effect and cause POI shift? I'm going to go out again this evening but not until it cools down. Have a great day!

Stoti
 
I got it mtnGhost. I sanded down the end of the carbon sleeve so it's about 1/16" shy of the barrel's threads. I then placed a small O-ring in that space between the threads and the carbon tube. I can now tighten down the moderator very securely without it creating a variable and POI shift. Because the moderator is bottoming out on the threads and the O-ring creates a bit of pressure, it will be exactly the same every time. I also made some shims so the sleeve is tight to the barrel liner. Really tight! LOL. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get it off of there! Hopefully the accuracy will tighten up even more and I can epoxy the shims, carbon tube and tape to the barrel sleeve. I also used shims, O-rings and tape on the slug liner hoping to keep the connection between the liner and aluminum sleeve as rigid as possible too. Of course the liners will still be removable because there inside the FX sleeve.

Sometimes I need to just see other projects, ask questions and it get's my mind working so I can figure it out myself. I'll let you know how mine works out and I'm very interested how yours turns out as well. I hope you don't mind me asking this stuff on your thread but since it's so similar I didn't think you would mind. I love the way mine turned out aesthetically, I like it a lot, However, looks come second to performance, I'm looking for accuracy above all else. Hopefully I can have both!

You know I think you're experiments are great...I love learning all I can from you and everyone else on AGN too. There's just a wealth of information. Is it hot up there too or is the summer fog keeping it cool? It's smokin' down here and I'm not ready for it! Thanks Gino, have a great day. Stoti

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Nice work stoti, I took a different approach with similar end results to my marauder in that I made it so my moderator can be removed/added and shroud can be tightened/loosened/bumped (modified stock shroud) without causing any shifts in poi whatsoever. The more variables that impact POI that can be eliminated, the better. This certainly shows that no rifle is really exempt to those little nuances when going deep down the rabbit hole. I approve of your solution. I'd probably be anal myself and reduce the o-ring CS/OD so that its a bit more hidden/blended in, otherwise brilliant.
 
We'll see what happens in the morning. We got busy doing stuff around the house today and it never really cooled down. We're going to the range first thing in the morning to see how it shoots and if the modifications made any difference. It's an accurate gun already, if I can tighten things up at all, I'll be happy. I'm hoping it will help with some slugs that are a bit mediocre as well. I finally found out the diameter of the .25 FX slug liner at the lands, grooves and at the choke so I have that to work with too. Sworn to secrecy though which sucks!

Stoti
 
@stoti - so you're shimming between the liner and CF tubing? That might work. That HM tube that I listed above looks as if it were made for a .25 FX liner though! Pricey, but definitely worth it.

My liner is SOLID now. Had the opportunity to test it yesterday, and it shot just as well with snd without an LDC attached. Grouping under and inch with the few 36 and 40 rain boat tails that I had left over.

The only problem was that I had to shoot them slower (905-910) using the new hammer weight and older spring. My hammer spring / rear acetal spring guide on the other hand gave me serious issues with spread. Binding up like crazy. It was 58F and windy in the mountains yesterday, the setup was fine15-20F warmer, but I didn't account well enough for spring riding the guide a little snug. Example - the guide was stuck in the spring when I removed it yesterday for inspection. That wasn't an issue when I cut down / polished / tested the spring at home 👎

Not too worried about any of that though. I have a super bad ass adjustable SSG-like hammer system in the works that will mitigate any issues like that 💪
 
I finally got around to making a replacement spring for this 2500PSI reg tune for the 40gr Griffin BT ammo. The inside diameter of the other one was just too tight to work with this hammer system and caused problems. 

Added an additional coil to this spring to ensure greater consistency, still using a 5.4 gram marine brass hammer weight. The result:

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It is a very consistent 85FPE shooter now. Good Lord!!!