I've started a few posts about this gun in the last 6-8 weeks.
Full version in these links:
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/barrel-pellet-mismatch/
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/opening-up-a-tight-choke/
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/veteran-long-22-plenum-install-and-outcome/
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/bc-measuring-and-optimal-speed-and-pellet-for-long-range-shooting-theorizing/
Short version: I bought the gun to be a long range shooter, with either JSB 25.4 MRDs or an NSA slug, and it hated everything but JSB 18.13s, which limited the power (and left me with an inherently low BC pellet), which negated the whole purpose of buying this gun. Shot really well with the 18.13s, but couldnt make them go any faster than about 940 without accuracy degrading, with a measured BC of 0.034 (18.13gr @ 940 @ the muzzle and 789@ 48 yards)
I considered the 700mm barrel being offered as a drop-in for the Veteran, but decided against that 27.56 incher for various reasons (mostly the length, but also that there haven't been many reports on them yet and I was concerned that it would be over-choked like the OEM barrel that already wasn't cooperating with my plans).
And that's how I arrived here-have a buddy machine me a .22 Lothar Walthar unchoked barrel. Working hypothesis being: that really nasty tight choke on the barrel that came on the gun is throwing a wrench in the system, lets go 180 degrees the other direction and try an unchoked barrel. Perhaps the new unchoked barrel will like a better BC projectile and, worst case scenario, can always go back to the OEM barrel and just try to live with 35fpe and not the greatest wind deflection resistance. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Would have really preferred a polygonal rifled barrel, but OD on these Vet barrels is 15mm, and polys are only listed as 16mm OD on the LW USA website. I even emailed John McBrayer at LW Precision Tool, Inc in Georgia and he confirmed that they did not have any 15mm polys. Interesting to note here that Daystate has 15mm LW poly barrels in some of their guns. I don't know if that extra 1mm is getting machined off at some point for the Daystate barrels, or if LW is making them that way, but this only further confirms what I've stated elsewhere about Daystate LW barrels, THEY ARE SPECIAL and very different than the barrel blanks that are available to the public. So, I ordered what they had, 15mm unchoked traditionally rifled blanks.
Today I picked up the barrel and did a little prelim accuracy testing.
Here is what the gun looked like after the plenum install (with the OEM length barrel), just a bit of an underbite with the shroud being longer than the barrel.
And what it looks like after the install of the newly machined blank.....(REALLY helped with the odd visual effect of the underbite)
Comparison of the barrel lengths...(the difference, after the machining-the new barrel is 1.875 inches longer than the OEM length)
And a little bit of a hiccup when installing.....(turns out the OD of the "15mm" blanks were 0.006inches bigger than the OD of the "15mm" OEM barrel). Installed just fine, except the shroud fits so tight on the OEM barrel that it wouldn't slide over the new barrel. Machinist friend was kind enough to take just a bit off. First pic is what it looks like on the OEM barrel after being machined just a bit bigger. Might have to put a VERY thin shim on it if I ever decide to go back to the OEM barrel.
And now, the big question.......how does it shoot?
Well, the first couple shots were on paper at 50 yards, shoot, adjust turret, shoot, adjust turret. By the third or fourth shot I decided to just hold in the center of a circle on the target and see how it'd group. Next 5 or so holes were all touching, with the JSB 25.4 MRDs. Not too bad.
Friend had his Labradar set up and I was curious about a few things. I shot some 18.13s to see what kind of gain I was getting from the extra barrel length, and fps was only 904. I thought that I had last had the gun doing 940fps with the 18.13s with this same hammer tension and the OEM barrel, so initial assumption was that I had LOST some fps. Only when I got home did I find in my notes that I last had the gun doing 870fps with the 18.13s for the BC comparison I covered in one of the above links. That means the extra 1.875 inches of barrel, with the same hammer tension and 18.13grainers, increased the fps from 870 to 904, 34fps faster.
After that I cranked up the power and the range. With the new barrel, and the plenum and the hammer at nearly it's max, the 25.4gr MRDs were doing 872, for about 43fpe. This is just a couple less fpe than it was doing when new, which could be variance in my chrono and the Labradar, or the fact that every regulated PCP I have shot in the past couple years loses 2 or 3 fpe once it is broken in. After that, I came down just a bit more, to get them going 850-855fps for around 41fpe, and left the hammer tension there for the rest of the accuracy testing. At this hammer tension it was very easy to cock and didn't sound or feel like the gun was wasting air or working hard for its power output. I know guys are putting really heavy hammer springs in their Vets or bumping up the reg pressure for max power but I just don't think I want to got that route. Machinist friend also pointed out that the traditional rifling might do better in this realm of 850-870fps (vs the 960-970 guys are pushing these pellets in the poly barrels). We also measured the BC of the 25.4s at 850fps and found them to be 0.049, I can live with that-MUCH better than the BC of the 18.13s.
I compared the accuracy of the 25.4 gr Monster RDs to the NSA 23 flat base (0.217), the NSA 17.5 dish base (0.2165), and the NSA 20.2 dish base (0.216) all at 100 yards. Friend had some EBR type paper targets out at 100 yards and I shot multiple 5 or 6 shot groups with each of the projectiles. With the same hammer tension (850fps with 25.4gr) the 17.5gr NSAs were doing 960fps and the 20.2s were doing 860fps. Sorry, didn't think to get any BC collection of the slugs.
Wind was variable and tricky, but not so bad that I couldn't compare general accuracy. The 23gr slugs were the least accurate. The 17.5s and 20.2s both did pretty well, definitely hunting accurate. But when all was said and done and I looked back through the various 100 yard groups, the JSB 25.4gr Monster RDs were the two best groups. I didn't walk out to see them up close, but groups were probably 1.25 inches with the 25.4s. I was able to ding a bell at 125 yards 5 or 6 times in a row with the 17.5gr NSAs (I think about a 2 inch killzone). And I was able to group the 17.5s, 20.2, and MRDs on a steel plate at 150 yards (once I figured out holdover). I could see some of those in flight at the longer ranges and they're flying straight and true, none of the wobble and curveballs I was seeing with the good BC projectiles from the OEM barrel.
All said and done, prelim results from today seem to suggest a massive success. Needs a lot more shooting to gain familiarity, but I think that I've got a long range shooter now. I feel it can be much more competitive in the Extreme Field Target matches that a friend is putting on monthly here in AZ. AND this new long ranger Vet will be hell on the pdogs next summer when it warms up enough for them to come out of hibernation.
(Much thanks to Bobby for his superb machining and barrel prep skills and general willingness to humor me. )
Full version in these links:
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/barrel-pellet-mismatch/
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/opening-up-a-tight-choke/
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/veteran-long-22-plenum-install-and-outcome/
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/bc-measuring-and-optimal-speed-and-pellet-for-long-range-shooting-theorizing/
Short version: I bought the gun to be a long range shooter, with either JSB 25.4 MRDs or an NSA slug, and it hated everything but JSB 18.13s, which limited the power (and left me with an inherently low BC pellet), which negated the whole purpose of buying this gun. Shot really well with the 18.13s, but couldnt make them go any faster than about 940 without accuracy degrading, with a measured BC of 0.034 (18.13gr @ 940 @ the muzzle and 789@ 48 yards)
I considered the 700mm barrel being offered as a drop-in for the Veteran, but decided against that 27.56 incher for various reasons (mostly the length, but also that there haven't been many reports on them yet and I was concerned that it would be over-choked like the OEM barrel that already wasn't cooperating with my plans).
And that's how I arrived here-have a buddy machine me a .22 Lothar Walthar unchoked barrel. Working hypothesis being: that really nasty tight choke on the barrel that came on the gun is throwing a wrench in the system, lets go 180 degrees the other direction and try an unchoked barrel. Perhaps the new unchoked barrel will like a better BC projectile and, worst case scenario, can always go back to the OEM barrel and just try to live with 35fpe and not the greatest wind deflection resistance. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Would have really preferred a polygonal rifled barrel, but OD on these Vet barrels is 15mm, and polys are only listed as 16mm OD on the LW USA website. I even emailed John McBrayer at LW Precision Tool, Inc in Georgia and he confirmed that they did not have any 15mm polys. Interesting to note here that Daystate has 15mm LW poly barrels in some of their guns. I don't know if that extra 1mm is getting machined off at some point for the Daystate barrels, or if LW is making them that way, but this only further confirms what I've stated elsewhere about Daystate LW barrels, THEY ARE SPECIAL and very different than the barrel blanks that are available to the public. So, I ordered what they had, 15mm unchoked traditionally rifled blanks.
Today I picked up the barrel and did a little prelim accuracy testing.
Here is what the gun looked like after the plenum install (with the OEM length barrel), just a bit of an underbite with the shroud being longer than the barrel.
And what it looks like after the install of the newly machined blank.....(REALLY helped with the odd visual effect of the underbite)
Comparison of the barrel lengths...(the difference, after the machining-the new barrel is 1.875 inches longer than the OEM length)
And a little bit of a hiccup when installing.....(turns out the OD of the "15mm" blanks were 0.006inches bigger than the OD of the "15mm" OEM barrel). Installed just fine, except the shroud fits so tight on the OEM barrel that it wouldn't slide over the new barrel. Machinist friend was kind enough to take just a bit off. First pic is what it looks like on the OEM barrel after being machined just a bit bigger. Might have to put a VERY thin shim on it if I ever decide to go back to the OEM barrel.
And now, the big question.......how does it shoot?
Well, the first couple shots were on paper at 50 yards, shoot, adjust turret, shoot, adjust turret. By the third or fourth shot I decided to just hold in the center of a circle on the target and see how it'd group. Next 5 or so holes were all touching, with the JSB 25.4 MRDs. Not too bad.
Friend had his Labradar set up and I was curious about a few things. I shot some 18.13s to see what kind of gain I was getting from the extra barrel length, and fps was only 904. I thought that I had last had the gun doing 940fps with the 18.13s with this same hammer tension and the OEM barrel, so initial assumption was that I had LOST some fps. Only when I got home did I find in my notes that I last had the gun doing 870fps with the 18.13s for the BC comparison I covered in one of the above links. That means the extra 1.875 inches of barrel, with the same hammer tension and 18.13grainers, increased the fps from 870 to 904, 34fps faster.
After that I cranked up the power and the range. With the new barrel, and the plenum and the hammer at nearly it's max, the 25.4gr MRDs were doing 872, for about 43fpe. This is just a couple less fpe than it was doing when new, which could be variance in my chrono and the Labradar, or the fact that every regulated PCP I have shot in the past couple years loses 2 or 3 fpe once it is broken in. After that, I came down just a bit more, to get them going 850-855fps for around 41fpe, and left the hammer tension there for the rest of the accuracy testing. At this hammer tension it was very easy to cock and didn't sound or feel like the gun was wasting air or working hard for its power output. I know guys are putting really heavy hammer springs in their Vets or bumping up the reg pressure for max power but I just don't think I want to got that route. Machinist friend also pointed out that the traditional rifling might do better in this realm of 850-870fps (vs the 960-970 guys are pushing these pellets in the poly barrels). We also measured the BC of the 25.4s at 850fps and found them to be 0.049, I can live with that-MUCH better than the BC of the 18.13s.
I compared the accuracy of the 25.4 gr Monster RDs to the NSA 23 flat base (0.217), the NSA 17.5 dish base (0.2165), and the NSA 20.2 dish base (0.216) all at 100 yards. Friend had some EBR type paper targets out at 100 yards and I shot multiple 5 or 6 shot groups with each of the projectiles. With the same hammer tension (850fps with 25.4gr) the 17.5gr NSAs were doing 960fps and the 20.2s were doing 860fps. Sorry, didn't think to get any BC collection of the slugs.
Wind was variable and tricky, but not so bad that I couldn't compare general accuracy. The 23gr slugs were the least accurate. The 17.5s and 20.2s both did pretty well, definitely hunting accurate. But when all was said and done and I looked back through the various 100 yard groups, the JSB 25.4gr Monster RDs were the two best groups. I didn't walk out to see them up close, but groups were probably 1.25 inches with the 25.4s. I was able to ding a bell at 125 yards 5 or 6 times in a row with the 17.5gr NSAs (I think about a 2 inch killzone). And I was able to group the 17.5s, 20.2, and MRDs on a steel plate at 150 yards (once I figured out holdover). I could see some of those in flight at the longer ranges and they're flying straight and true, none of the wobble and curveballs I was seeing with the good BC projectiles from the OEM barrel.
All said and done, prelim results from today seem to suggest a massive success. Needs a lot more shooting to gain familiarity, but I think that I've got a long range shooter now. I feel it can be much more competitive in the Extreme Field Target matches that a friend is putting on monthly here in AZ. AND this new long ranger Vet will be hell on the pdogs next summer when it warms up enough for them to come out of hibernation.
(Much thanks to Bobby for his superb machining and barrel prep skills and general willingness to humor me. )
