Tuning Tuning regulated gun with peek poppet

Is it possible to get to the same power say 60 fpe with less pressure to get the valve to open easier I'm at 155 bar and using a smaller peek poppet at max spring tension for the hammer I'm able to reach 954 fps with 34 gr mk2 pellets so I'm able to drop spring tension to drop down to about 900 fps but I would like to drop the reg pressure down as well so I guess my question is is it better to have the reg set higher or lower and have more dwell for efficiency 
 
You'll likely see some capacity to do so but it typically won't be significant. A harder poppet material alone does not increase the power a meaningful amount but by slimming the poppet as you've done, it may improve the flow rate into the valve throat because the air has a shorter, less turbulent path to take around the rim of the poppet. So you may be able to drop the regulator setpoint a smidge and achieve the same energy as before.

In terms of efficiency, high pressure and short dwell is the way to go. Just bear in mind that it doesn't necessarily translate into higher shot count because at some point you will have sacrificed so much overhead (FillPressure minus RegSetpoint) that shot count begins to fall. Seeking ever shorter dwell may also cause the extreme spread to suffer. The goal is finding a combination that offers a good balance of them all.
 
Pressure IS THE ENERGY that drives the pellet forward. Volume has a bearing on how well you maintain the pressure behind said pellet until as such time the volume gained between valve and pellet further down barrel becomes too much and pressure starts falling. Once the pressure behind said pellet falls away the acceleration rate stops and speed is pretty established.



This is why you will read and hear the term AMPLITUDE ....That being getting the highest pressure you can Behind the pellet Quickly as you can before it starts its travel down and out the barrel. Knowing the increase of volume that your attempting to keep pressurized is somewhat linear to the distance pellet travels from where it was, over dwelling valve makes no sense.



What a PEEK poppet brings to the table is a material that can have thinner sealing margins, releases its contact seal quicker due to low material compressablity. Outside of the that it is still the PRESSURE and how quickly and effectively it gets behind the pellet that SHOOTS / LAUNCHES it into motion and down the barrel. For most high power applications valve staying open much past when the pellet is 50% or less the barrel length is optimal with best efficiency less than that. * There is much more to this specific subject and the above % is just a reference # only or basic conversation.



Scott S
 
So basically it is trial and error to get it right I will be adding a external plenum also which should help some I have noticed a pretty good decrease in spring tension on my ssg set up with smoothing valve corners a metal striker on the hammer and peek poppet and enlarging barrel port to .200 I now longer need max out spring tension to get to 900 fps
 
Pressure IS THE ENERGY that drives the pellet forward. Volume has a bearing on how well you maintain the pressure behind said pellet until as such time the volume gained between valve and pellet further down barrel becomes too much and pressure starts falling. Once the pressure behind said pellet falls away the acceleration rate stops and speed is pretty established.



This is why you will read and hear the term AMPLITUDE ....That being getting the highest pressure you can Behind the pellet Quickly as you can before it starts its travel down and out the barrel. Knowing the increase of volume that your attempting to keep pressurized is somewhat linear to the distance pellet travels from where it was, over dwelling valve makes no sense.



What a PEEK poppet brings to the table is a material that can have thinner sealing margins, releases its contact seal quicker due to low material compressablity. Outside of the that it is still the PRESSURE and how quickly and effectively it gets behind the pellet that SHOOTS / LAUNCHES it into motion and down the barrel. For most high power applications valve staying open much past when the pellet is 50% or less the barrel length is optimal with best efficiency less than that. * There is much more to this specific subject and the above % is just a reference # only or basic conversation.



Scott S

I have read tens of thousands of airgun articles and posts, and other than yours, I’ve yet to see the word amplitude used in relation to airgun poppet tuning, esp to describe the time required to fill the volume between firing valve and at rest pellet base. 

Since amplitude has pretty much always been related to the half-wave height of vibration, versus wave length, which is peak to peak. I fail to see a need for neologism in this case, as it there is already much talk of amplitude regarding barrel vibrations and decibel levels of airguns.
 
Is it possible to get to the same power say 60 fpe with less pressure to get the valve to open easier I'm at 155 bar and using a smaller peek poppet at max spring tension for the hammer I'm able to reach 954 fps with 34 gr mk2 pellets so I'm able to drop spring tension to drop down to about 900 fps but I would like to drop the reg pressure down as well so I guess my question is is it better to have the reg set higher or lower and have more dwell for efficiency

You were already at almost 69fpe, so I’d say just a reduction in striker spring would get you to 60fpe no problem. Remember, if you are near, or at max, don’t lower pressure before lowering hammer spring force. A reduction in fpe will lower air usage a lot, but reducing reg output pressure AND spring load may have you see-sawing back and forth needlessly, since you may get a similar increase in shot-count with just less spring. Higher reg output pressure usually gives more shots per fill than lower reg output pressure but more volume (though on the flip side, lower fill pressure can give more fills per tank). 

A pioneer of regulated airgun building, Dave Welham, taught me this rule of thumb in the early 90’s: To find the proper striker spring setting for a given reg pressure, increase til highest velocity is reached, then back off to reduce velocity around 15fps.

Of course, if you are than still under your energy target, more tuning is needed, but keep the spring/pressure ratio within reason.
 
Pressure IS THE ENERGY that drives the pellet forward. Volume has a bearing on how well you maintain the pressure behind said pellet until as such time the volume gained between valve and pellet further down barrel becomes too much and pressure starts falling. Once the pressure behind said pellet falls away the acceleration rate stops and speed is pretty established.



This is why you will read and hear the term AMPLITUDE ....That being getting the highest pressure you can Behind the pellet Quickly as you can before it starts its travel down and out the barrel. Knowing the increase of volume that your attempting to keep pressurized is somewhat linear to the distance pellet travels from where it was, over dwelling valve makes no sense.



What a PEEK poppet brings to the table is a material that can have thinner sealing margins, releases its contact seal quicker due to low material compressablity. Outside of the that it is still the PRESSURE and how quickly and effectively it gets behind the pellet that SHOOTS / LAUNCHES it into motion and down the barrel. For most high power applications valve staying open much past when the pellet is 50% or less the barrel length is optimal with best efficiency less than that. * There is much more to this specific subject and the above % is just a reference # only or basic conversation.



Scott S

I have read tens of thousands of airgun articles and posts, and other than yours, I’ve yet to see the word amplitude used in relation to airgun poppet tuning, esp to describe the time required to fill the volume between firing valve and at rest pellet base. 

Since amplitude has pretty much always been related to the half-wave height of vibration, versus wave length, which is peak to peak. I fail to see a need for neologism in this case, as it there is already much talk of amplitude regarding barrel vibrations and decibel levels of airguns.


Why I use that term ..... because of my extensive background in 2 stroke engines and tuned pipe dynamics where compressive or negative energy threw air and how timing of these pressure waves moving threw a mechanical devise can act. Where said AMPLITUDE and controlling / directing pressure pulses is key in happening at the correct time.

I could write a book on the subject, and being active for many years within other forums on the schooling of said principals of flow dynamics the "WORD" is very much relative in tuning a PCP valve / transfer / hammer system.

So LD, smart as you are, your education or that education of others in such matters where the term is not commonly used is unfortunate and a loss on there part of not having such knowledge ever presented to them in the context of Speed and Strength within specific time allowances within an Air rifle system.



I Know what i know and practice it. You do the same within your knowledge base and what you have read. Our backgrounds are very different but not so much we can't agree in life that we can keep learning something new every so often.



With that I'm done ...



Scott S
 
Pressure IS THE ENERGY that drives the pellet forward. Volume has a bearing on how well you maintain the pressure behind said pellet until as such time the volume gained between valve and pellet further down barrel becomes too much and pressure starts falling. Once the pressure behind said pellet falls away the acceleration rate stops and speed is pretty established.



This is why you will read and hear the term AMPLITUDE ....That being getting the highest pressure you can Behind the pellet Quickly as you can before it starts its travel down and out the barrel. Knowing the increase of volume that your attempting to keep pressurized is somewhat linear to the distance pellet travels from where it was, over dwelling valve makes no sense.



What a PEEK poppet brings to the table is a material that can have thinner sealing margins, releases its contact seal quicker due to low material compressablity. Outside of the that it is still the PRESSURE and how quickly and effectively it gets behind the pellet that SHOOTS / LAUNCHES it into motion and down the barrel. For most high power applications valve staying open much past when the pellet is 50% or less the barrel length is optimal with best efficiency less than that. * There is much more to this specific subject and the above % is just a reference # only or basic conversation.



Scott S

I have read tens of thousands of airgun articles and posts, and other than yours, I’ve yet to see the word amplitude used in relation to airgun poppet tuning, esp to describe the time required to fill the volume between firing valve and at rest pellet base. 

Since amplitude has pretty much always been related to the half-wave height of vibration, versus wave length, which is peak to peak. I fail to see a need for neologism in this case, as it there is already much talk of amplitude regarding barrel vibrations and decibel levels of airguns.


Why I use that term ..... because of my extensive background in 2 stroke engines and tuned pipe dynamics where compressive or negative energy threw air and how timing of these pressure waves moving threw a mechanical devise can act. Where said AMPLITUDE and controlling / directing pressure pulses is key in happening at the correct time.

I could write a book on the subject, and being active for many years within other forums on the schooling of said principals of flow dynamics the "WORD" is very much relative in tuning a PCP valve / transfer / hammer system.

So LD, smart as you are, your education or that education of others in such matters where the term is not commonly used is unfortunate and a loss on there part of not having such knowledge ever presented to them in the context of Speed and Strength within specific time allowances within an Air rifle system.



I Know what i know and practice it. You do the same within your knowledge base and what you have read. Our backgrounds are very different but not so much we can't agree in life that we can keep learning something new every so often.



With that I'm done ...



Scott S

Not buying it. I too had a huge interest, experience, and understanding of two-stroke tuning tricks and tuning, and while I realize that pressure pulse/wave exhaust tuning was tantamount to achieving high power from small racing engines, I see no serious similarity with use of the term to describe the fill time interval between valve pressure release and pellet movement. While I did suspect there is some harmonic pulse tuning energy to be gained from unregulated guns, back in the 80’s, I feel that concept was discounted with the advent of “de-ping devices” that failed to reduce output of well tuned guns, If you believe there is some sort of “ram effect” related to valve closure and initial pellet movement, please pick a more appropriate term other than AMPLITUDE rather than employ neologism again.