Lead is EXTREMELY toxic to BOP's. The size of a ballpoint pen tip can easily kill a hawk, hence why they are using non-lead.
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Too tough squirrels
- Thread starter Calson
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Thank you for being so cognizant of bird of pray’s well being, they and birds in general are indeed extreme vulnerable to lead poisoning due to their extremely strong stomach acid. If a piece of lead sit in soil it’s relatively inert thanks to its thin oxidizarion layer like aluminum that prevents further oxidization but that oxidization layer is easily stripped by even weak acid. This is fact not opinion, their stomach acid has evolved to dissolve bones!!!
How Do Raptors Get Lead Poisoning?
www.wildlifecenter.org Best bet is still a vital shot which is true for hunting in general.
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The projectile here has nothing to do with the OPs situation. It's shot placement, and nothing more.
As has been mentioned, a head shot and a brain shot are two different things.
I hunt with a LOT less power and a lot smaller caliber almost exclusively, and don't have many issues. It's not the pellet or the fact that it's not made of lead. No pellet would fix the problem in the situation in the OP.
The big caliber guys always argue that they allow for more margin for error, or more killing power or whatever. And this is the perfect example of why it doesn't hold much water in a headshot situation.
Go for vital shots, and your success should increase considerably. I've also found that a solid vital hit will often times anchor them quicker than a brain shot, without all the death flipping and flopping and blood flying everywhere.
Brain shots are effective, but a lot harder to achieve and with much worse results when they don't go as planned. A bad head shot can leave the squirrel with a ripped off jaw left to starve to death. A poor placed vital shot stands a much better chance of killing the squirrel quicker. Just my opinion based on a lot of time hunting squirrels.
Regardless, don't give up, and don't think your gun isn't up to the task with what you have to shoot. It's more than enough trust me.
As has been mentioned, a head shot and a brain shot are two different things.
I hunt with a LOT less power and a lot smaller caliber almost exclusively, and don't have many issues. It's not the pellet or the fact that it's not made of lead. No pellet would fix the problem in the situation in the OP.
The big caliber guys always argue that they allow for more margin for error, or more killing power or whatever. And this is the perfect example of why it doesn't hold much water in a headshot situation.
Go for vital shots, and your success should increase considerably. I've also found that a solid vital hit will often times anchor them quicker than a brain shot, without all the death flipping and flopping and blood flying everywhere.
Brain shots are effective, but a lot harder to achieve and with much worse results when they don't go as planned. A bad head shot can leave the squirrel with a ripped off jaw left to starve to death. A poor placed vital shot stands a much better chance of killing the squirrel quicker. Just my opinion based on a lot of time hunting squirrels.
Regardless, don't give up, and don't think your gun isn't up to the task with what you have to shoot. It's more than enough trust me.
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+ 1 on vitals, best to limit head shots to situations where the critter is looking away from you and the neck expands the kz. Even then, it should be a perfect setup, well within a proven 'eye of chipmunk' zone of accuracy. Otherwise aiming a bit lower is still the better bet as you can see below.
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How much does a domed lead pellet fragment? I've weighed pellets before and after being recovered from a squirrel that the pellet stopped just under the skin on the opposite side of the shot and it weighed the same after cleaning the goo off. That was a crosman which is harder lead. I'm sure hollow point pellets have a higher chance of shedding pieces.
I understand erring on the side of caution for the birds sake though.
I understand erring on the side of caution for the birds sake though.
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Chronically, yes. But the amount of time it is in their system and in the form that it is, I don't believe it a significant factor to their health.
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"...I don't believe..."
Not being snarky, what research is this assertion based on? I ask because there is plenty of data to the contrary. In addition to being a firearm and air rifle hunter for most of my life, I am also a licensed falconer, and as such have to be intimately aware/informed as to the many hazards that plague BOPs, with lead poisoning being one factor, in addition to carbon monoxide from vehicles, and many others.
www.wildlifecenter.org
www.stuff.co.nz
I use lead pellets/slugs in my air rifle but I also make sure to discard of whatever section of what I shot that could be contaminated with lead in a manner that would not allow a BOP to feed on it.
Not being snarky, what research is this assertion based on? I ask because there is plenty of data to the contrary. In addition to being a firearm and air rifle hunter for most of my life, I am also a licensed falconer, and as such have to be intimately aware/informed as to the many hazards that plague BOPs, with lead poisoning being one factor, in addition to carbon monoxide from vehicles, and many others.
Lead Poisoning in Raptors and Other Animals
Stuff
www.stuff.co.nz I use lead pellets/slugs in my air rifle but I also make sure to discard of whatever section of what I shot that could be contaminated with lead in a manner that would not allow a BOP to feed on it.
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The chances of that are very very low of pellets or slugs fragmenting — in fact a couple of years ago swish and The_Long_Shot came up with a mod to slugs to make them expand at low velocities, and they were sold by friend as Talon Slugs for a short while.
Then, Motorhead and Knifemaker and others were experimenting with similar concepts, quite successfully.
However, commercial non-modded pellets and slugs are not likely to fragment (unless they impact the quarry at extremely high velocities — that kill the accuracy at any but extremely close ranges).Matthias
Collection of Projectile Expansion Test Results: I have found none that fragmented, except for the RWS Super-H-Point, due to its weakly constructed neck.
● Pellets:
🔴Hollow Point Pellets — Testing How Much They Expand and How Far They Penetrate
Hollow Point Pellets — Testing How Much They Expand and How Far They Penetrate This thread is PART (4a) of a four-part series. The other threads explain the mechanics of killing, which projectiles kill better, and which HP pellets are available (detailed specs of .22cal @ US). Links to the...
www.airgunnation.com ● Slugs:
🔴 Slugs --- Testing How Much They Expand and How Far They Penetrate
Slugs --- Testing How Much They Expand and How Far They Penetrate Slugs for airguns won’t ever replace pellets. But they aren’t just a fashion, either. Slugs easily cut wind drift by more than half. And at longer ranges they hit quarry with twice the energy. Those are reasons enough that I...
www.airgunnation.com Upvote 0
Respectfully disagree. I killed over 600 Fox squirrels with my Diana M34 in .22 before moving to a .25 cal pcp. Those Fox tree rats are much tougher than greys and can take a lot of damage. I shoot 25.4 gr Kings at 40 ft lbs and get consistent pass throughs making for good, safe, eats for the birds. The only way I don’t get pass throughs is if I hit both shoulders. Those Kings are the most accurate ammo for my Marauder and accuracy is paramount for head shots. Those tin pellets are junk and likely a large part of the problem being less accurate than lead pellets. I can and do make head shots but vital shots like the double lung are very effective. I had a few wounded get away with the .22 but nearly zero with the big .25. It is by far the superior killer of tough game. If you’re willing to accept the increased risk of wounded animals escaping using smaller bores then proceed. I did for years but that was before PCPs and larger calibers were known to me. I still use the Diana but am very selective on my shots letting many pass.
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Tin pellets don’t do well in the accuracy dept. and accuracy is what’s needed for head shots. Full weight lead pellets fired through a PCP should pass through leaving the game safe for the birds.
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Well, if the wounded ones you shot with the .22 got away, then you (same as the OP) didn't make a clean BRAIN shot. They don't "get away" with their brain destroyed. As I stated, shot placement was the problem here, not caliber. If you were only .005" off, maybe the .25 would have saved the day?
I've seen folks shoot them "in the side" with a .22LR and the squirrel run away with guts dragging. Shot placement.
Myself, I'll still be toting a 11fpe .177 spring gun in the woods this year, and still bringing home quickly and cleanly killed squirrels. Same as I have done for many many years now.
And I won't feel undergunned doing it.
I have bigger PCPs, and have hunted with them. They work fine too but I hardly ever use them.
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Shot placement is as I clearly stated is “paramount.” I am honest enough to admit to not be the Carlos Hathcock of the pellet gun world, but I’m a pretty good shot. If you will look at the frontal area of a .25 compared to a .22 it makes a nearly double sized hole through the target. Pellet guns kill by disrupting vital functions and the bigger the hole the better the kill. Ted did a video on the subject and I consider him to be a if not the authority on air gunning. I think I have been clear in stating the “in the side” being a double lung shot. Now you are down grading folks who hunt squirrels with rim fires. If you will have something negative to say about those who use shotguns you will have covered everybody who doesn’t do it how you do it. I’m sure you can make solid kills with a 11 ft lb 177 at short range as I did it with a 15 ft lb .22 springer for decades, but don’t tell me you are doing it at 50+ yards that I have with my .25. The rules here don’t allow me to post my thoughts on that. BTW I am working on a Challenger 2009 that was given to me in need of work. I’m installing a Marauder pistol transfer port which should get in the 10/11 ft lb power range you like. I also ordered a Discovery TP that should get me to around 18 ft lbs but it would require mechanical reinforcement of the T-bolt. The 12 grove LW bbl is said to be supremely accurate. It will be my starling and plinking gun. Who knows, it might convert me to the faith of the low powered small bore. Don’t see that happening, but everything has its place.
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Man, I ain't trying to degrade anybody. You need to back up there..... I have hunted squirrels with rimfires, as I'm sure damn near every one of us here has.
"In the side" is the term the guy using the rimfire used in the incident I mentioned, hence the quotes. If it keeps from hurting your feelings, the guy was actually my dad. He's in his late 60s, can barely get around, and has failing eyesight like most folks. But I'll take him to the woods any chance I get, and he totes a shotgun now. So you can get all unwadded over it now.
My opinion, is if you can't get closer than 50 yards to a tree squirrel, you have no business shooting at it. They are incredibly fast moving, and make for a pretty small killzone (even if it happens to stay still) under real outdoor conditions. But that's my take, and I don't expect anybody to live by it.
So yes you are absolutely correct, I ain't killing squat at 50 yards with my 11fpe .177
And I'm no Carlos Hathcock either, so I make sure I get close enough to pop em cleanly with my peashooter. I just don't find it very hard to do but that's just how I like to do it.
Just for reference, if we are killing things on paper here, there's a bigger jump in diameter from .177 to .22, than there is from .22 to .25....
.177 to .22: .040"
.22 to .25: .033"
So that monumental improvement in killing power from increased diameter should be greater going from .177 to .22 right?
Now just don't let the .20 cal guys bust the door down preaching the gospel and passing out pamphlets again.....
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Personally I’m terrified and extremely worried over the possibility that I may fall victim to the “breakthrough” heterosexual monkey pox infection........
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Go back and read your postings. You come off as a bit the small bore elitist. Don’t worry about hurting my feelings. My ex endowed me with skin an elephant would envy. You hunt the way you want and I will get it done how I please and I like making long shots. In this I have much company here. I have no problem with short range shots. If I catch one sitting still and have a tree to steady my aim, 50 yards is a very ethical shot. That’s why I use 40+ ft lb guns. Just picked up another .25 and the plan is a tune in the upper 40s to mid 50s energy. The best groups will decide the final power level. Again READ my postings before you reply. You are somehow fixated on bore diameter. There is little diff between .22 and .25 in diameter but a very large diff in FRONTAL AREA. That means a much larger area of vitals damaged. If I felt confident in reliable expansion of .22 hunting pellets I would use that bore. With .25 I don’t need to hope the round expands, most don’t. Ya had to drag the .20 guys in.. I get that they like their thing and good on em. I am actually working on a Beeman R9 in .20 that might be available soon.
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The OP's experience is surprising to me. I've killed 37 squirrels so far with my PCPs. 20 were with 25s. 18 of those with my P35 shooting 20 grain H&N FTT at 875 fps, about 32 fpe. I recovered all 20 of the squirrels shot with my 25s as I have the last two, killed with a 177 caliber P35. I lost 2 hit in the body with my Prod before I increased it's energy. Since tuning it to 18 fpe I've recovered all 11 I shot at.
The only 25 caliber pellets that did not pass through is one shoulder to shoulder shot and two that went diagonally through the squirrel. Those two diagonal hits were also the only squirrels which ran significantly after the hit. One went about 12 feet and the other about 15. The head shots with a 25 all dropped at the shot. I know one of those shots did not hit the brain, it was too far forward. But the skull of that squirrel was very fragmented. It was a small one, only about 8 ounces. I have not noticed my 22s or my 177 crushing the skull of a squirrel like this.
I use head shots when my hold is steady and I am confident in the shot. I aim for the brain and usually hit it. If I am a bit shaky, I go for a hear/lung shot. I may give up on lengthwise shots. They seem to kill the slowest. If I hit a shoulder they often drop and when they don't they take only a few steps.
I use the projectile that is most accurate in my guns. Unless that is a tin pellet, I would switch to a lead one that is accurate. 20 grain (as I use in my P35) is very light for a 25 and should penetrate the least but went through 15 of 18 squirrels for me. If you use a 25.4 grain at 30+ fpe you should almost never stop a pellet in a squirrel. Avoiding lengthwise shots would also help ensure that result. If you also avoid hitting both shoulders I don't think you will leave any lead in the squirrels to damage a bird of prey. If you want to be doubly sure, you could go up to the 34 grain 25 caliber pellets. But I think 25.4s should work well.
The only 25 caliber pellets that did not pass through is one shoulder to shoulder shot and two that went diagonally through the squirrel. Those two diagonal hits were also the only squirrels which ran significantly after the hit. One went about 12 feet and the other about 15. The head shots with a 25 all dropped at the shot. I know one of those shots did not hit the brain, it was too far forward. But the skull of that squirrel was very fragmented. It was a small one, only about 8 ounces. I have not noticed my 22s or my 177 crushing the skull of a squirrel like this.
I use head shots when my hold is steady and I am confident in the shot. I aim for the brain and usually hit it. If I am a bit shaky, I go for a hear/lung shot. I may give up on lengthwise shots. They seem to kill the slowest. If I hit a shoulder they often drop and when they don't they take only a few steps.
I use the projectile that is most accurate in my guns. Unless that is a tin pellet, I would switch to a lead one that is accurate. 20 grain (as I use in my P35) is very light for a 25 and should penetrate the least but went through 15 of 18 squirrels for me. If you use a 25.4 grain at 30+ fpe you should almost never stop a pellet in a squirrel. Avoiding lengthwise shots would also help ensure that result. If you also avoid hitting both shoulders I don't think you will leave any lead in the squirrels to damage a bird of prey. If you want to be doubly sure, you could go up to the 34 grain 25 caliber pellets. But I think 25.4s should work well.
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