To Catch A Thief - the tale of the missing BSA Goldstar SE Union Jack

[cavedweller]

The issue is with proving the seller had knowledge it was stolen. Most sellers, unless they are part of law enforcement and sell as a side gig, don't have access to law enforcement data. Not to mention, if the original owner didn't file a report or know the serial number, the gun in essence is akin to every other Huffy bicycle being stolen and sold daily.

Law enforcement must develop probable cause to make an arrest and the DA needs even more than that (beyond a reasonable doubt) to file charges and actually have a chance at a conviction.

I hate thieves as much as everyone else here, but these things can be hard to prove in the end, especially when it was a year after the fact. The honest truth is thieves get a way with 100 other thefts before they get caught quite often and this new idea of rehabilitation (think probation/parole) vs actual jail time is not helping.

Interesting note:
the eBay seller made great efforts to obscure the guns identity by taking only left side fuzzy images and when asked for right side pictures where ser# was he again made great efforts to keep the images obscured - the gun had two identifiable features that suggested this was “the” missing air rifle thusly I took the risk of buying it purely with the hopes that it was the missing air rifle. I was indeed very lucky that it was ! I immediately contacted all parties in attempt to right the wrong. That’s it, we are all waiting for PayPal/EBay. Patience required!!!

 

[cavedweller]

whoever is bringing up technicalities about receiving stolen items Blah blah are full of poop. this is a case of personal responsibility and JUSTICE. let it play out first before inserting your soy boy opinions. why are you on an airgun forum anyways? take the mask off and breath fresh air maybe that will help clear your mind.

TRUTH!

 

[sb327]

TRUTH!

Truth?

Fact: you claim the item is stolen
Fact: you are in possession of item

I really think you are trying to do the right thing. I don’t feel you are some bad guy thief.

I do feel the bigger person in this whole ordeal is the original seller. The original seller says you can keep it, then in essence, his property has been ‘returned’ and he gifts it to you.

This subject has been posted on an open forum. If you didn’t want people’s opinions or bringing up facts of law, you maybe should have kept this between yourself and the original owner.

I’ll bow out since the name calling has started. It has been a telling thread how some people think….

Good luck to all involved.

Dave

 

[cavedweller]

Truth?

Fact: you claim the item is stolen
Fact: you are in possession of item

I really think you are trying to do the right thing. I don’t feel you are some bad guy thief.

I do feel the bigger person in this whole ordeal is the original seller. The original seller says you can keep it, then in essence, his property has been ‘returned’ and he gifts it to you.

This subject has been posted on an open forum. If you didn’t want people’s opinions or bringing up facts of law, you maybe should have kept this between yourself and the original owner.

I’ll bow out since the name calling has started. It has been a telling thread how some people think….

Good luck to all involved.

Dave

thanks.... again this is all about learning.

 

[Treefrog]

The stick-up-the-butt crowd here amazes me. What have THEY done to make things right? About as much as any internet-rando does.

Certainly a lot less than the OP here has.

J~

 

[pnwairgunner]

The stick-up-the-butt crowd here amazes me. What have THEY done to make things right? About as much as any internet-rando does.

Certainly a lot less than the OP here has.

J~

I am not the person who is in possession of the stolen property, so I am not able to “make things right.”
The right thing would be for the police to be called and the property be returned to the person it was stolen from.
Stick up the butt??? If it were YOUR property that was stolen I’m sure you’d be wishing more people had a “stick up their butt” about it, instead of watching people post about buying what was stolen from you, and then expecting everyone to overlook it as a “learning experience “. HOW ABSURD!!!! The whole premise of trying to rationalize owning stolen property by claiming that this is an educational moment is ABSURD!
The only thing I’m learning from this is if that if my airguns, which I have invested thousands upon thousands of dollars in- ever get stolen, all I could expect to see is this type of rationalizing away my claim to my own property after someone has snatched it up at a bargain price on eBay.
I do not abide thieves, and as hard a pill as it is to swallow, the new buyer is the only one who can “make it right”. He knows it. That’s why he is setting up donations for the original owner to begin with, to try to entice others to donate to this cause so that he will have a clear conscience about his ill-gotten gains. He could simply give the property back to the man, and then work to get his own money back, as that is the correct thing. But no. That is not what’s happening here.
I’m out. You guys are too much. I am VERY grateful for the “Education“. The members who are cool with this are not the kind of group I want to be associated with.
I would take a loss and return stolen property to the rightful owner and then pursue my money from the thief. And I would sleep good at night knowing I did the honorable thing. But evidently that’s just me. I’m more than a little dismayed that this is not the consensus.

 

[Rawroots]

Hahaha I’m not making anyone out to be a “bad person”. Good people mistakenly buy stolen property all the time. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s stolen property and that it has a rightful owner.
If your car was stolen tonight and sold to your neighbor, how does that make it not your property anymore? Would you call it a “broken legal system” for the car to be returned to you? Or should your neighbor get to keep your car because he paid a thief for

Hahaha I’m not making anyone out to be a “bad person”. Good people mistakenly buy stolen property all the time. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s stolen property and that it has a rightful owner.
If your car was stolen tonight and sold to your neighbor, how does that make it not your property anymore? Would you call it a “broken legal system” for the car to be returned to you? Or should your neighbor get to keep your car because he paid a thief for it?

Definitely keep it, unless reimbursed.

 

[cjtamu]

Lessons here: 1) Pay for shipping insurance and have accurate description if you want a hope of recovering; 2) Keep photos and serial numbers of your AG, scopes, etc. I have a booklet with that info. Bicycles and other stuff in it too. Not only theft but fire, natural disasters, anything you might need to claim on homeowners. They’ll want proof and receipts. We’re about to have appraiser come look at some of the new things we’ve bought in last few years. This stuff pays off if you ever have to file a claim; 3) Keep doing the legwork. Had a friend few years back recover a custom SS bike he was having built. Few months later it showed up in a pawn shop Craigslist ad. Police recovered it and found 3 other bikes at thief’s house stolen from the shop at same time. Since the bikes were all $5K-$10K range he went to prison. Yay!; 4) Cavedweller and Kdog are both stand up guys. I’d do bidness with either.

 

[cavedweller]

I am not the person who is in possession of the stolen property, so I am not able to “make things right.”
The right thing would be for the police to be called and the property be returned to the person it was stolen from.
Stick up the butt??? If it were YOUR property that was stolen I’m sure you’d be wishing more people had a “stick up their butt” about it, instead of watching people post about buying what was stolen from you, and then expecting everyone to overlook it as a “learning experience “. HOW ABSURD!!!! The whole premise of trying to rationalize owning stolen property by claiming that this is an educational moment is ABSURD!
The only thing I’m learning from this is if that if my airguns, which I have invested thousands upon thousands of dollars in- ever get stolen, all I could expect to see is this type of rationalizing away my claim to my own property after someone has snatched it up at a bargain price on eBay.
I do not abide thieves, and as hard a pill as it is to swallow, the new buyer is the only one who can “make it right”. He knows it. That’s why he is setting up donations for the original owner to begin with, to try to entice others to donate to this cause so that he will have a clear conscience about his ill-gotten gains. He could simply give the property back to the man, and then work to get his own money back, as that is the correct thing. But no. That is not what’s happening here.
I’m out. You guys are too much. I am VERY grateful for the “Education“. The members who are cool with this are not the kind of group I want to be associated with.
I would take a loss and return stolen property to the rightful owner and then pursue my money from the thief. And I would sleep good at night knowing I did the honorable thing. But evidently that’s just me. I’m more than a little dismayed that this is not the consensus.

There was another option... OP could have simply done nothing, and the air gun would have sold on eBay to "someone" with absolutely no chance of ever catching or tracking the theft back to the thief with the hopes of holding them accountable or at least attempting to recover funds....

as state above = The Lessons are valuable.
#1) always create a proper bill of sale and record your purchases and sales to include historical info like:
date and source of acquisition and take pictures that include
A) serial numbers
B) identifying features.
How many of us do this? Thus the value of the information.
#2) If you are going to sell high dollar items, clearly identify what the item is and make sure to include a serial number(s) when applicable.
#3) Only ship properly (double boxed and very well packaged) items that make it very difficult for a carrier to peak inside. Includes a bill of sale and an additional shipping label on the inside box.
#4) Properly and truthfully declare package contents and fully insure them so that you can actually be refunded in case of carrier loss. At the very least use its legal nomenclature on shipping documents without trying to be sly by using terms like pneumatic tool or paper puncher or whatever.
#5) always require a signature on the receiving end to avoid a porch pirate or worse an thieving delivery person.
#6) If an item is lost / or suspected of being stolen, immediately contact the carrier and provide all your documentation, time is of the essence - there is always a waiting period before you can file a claim.
#7) After the waiting period is lapsed and the carrier declares the loss, file a police report, as a police report provides clear legal documentation of the circumstances surrounding the incident and your desire to recover your property.

I'm sure others can add to this, but at the moment this is all that comes to mind.

 

[7Green]

Interesting note:
the eBay seller made great efforts to obscure the guns identity by taking only left side fuzzy images and when asked for right side pictures where ser# was he again made great efforts to keep the images obscured - the gun had two identifiable features that suggested this was “the” missing air rifle thusly I took the risk of buying it purely with the hopes that it was the missing air rifle. I was indeed very lucky that it was ! I immediately contacted all parties in attempt to right the wrong. That’s it, we are all waiting for PayPal/EBay. Patience required!!!

I can appreciate your efforts. I am just trying to help educate some people who clearly do not have a grasp on how the justice system functions. Do I want the criminal caught and behind bars, absolutely. But, that isn't the reality of our justice system right now.

 

[7Green]

I am not the person who is in possession of the stolen property, so I am not able to “make things right.”
The right thing would be for the police to be called and the property be returned to the person it was stolen from.
Stick up the butt??? If it were YOUR property that was stolen I’m sure you’d be wishing more people had a “stick up their butt” about it, instead of watching people post about buying what was stolen from you, and then expecting everyone to overlook it as a “learning experience “. HOW ABSURD!!!! The whole premise of trying to rationalize owning stolen property by claiming that this is an educational moment is ABSURD!
The only thing I’m learning from this is if that if my airguns, which I have invested thousands upon thousands of dollars in- ever get stolen, all I could expect to see is this type of rationalizing away my claim to my own property after someone has snatched it up at a bargain price on eBay.
I do not abide thieves, and as hard a pill as it is to swallow, the new buyer is the only one who can “make it right”. He knows it. That’s why he is setting up donations for the original owner to begin with, to try to entice others to donate to this cause so that he will have a clear conscience about his ill-gotten gains. He could simply give the property back to the man, and then work to get his own money back, as that is the correct thing. But no. That is not what’s happening here.
I’m out. You guys are too much. I am VERY grateful for the “Education“. The members who are cool with this are not the kind of group I want to be associated with.
I would take a loss and return stolen property to the rightful owner and then pursue my money from the thief. And I would sleep good at night knowing I did the honorable thing. But evidently that’s just me. I’m more than a little dismayed that this is not the consensus.

I completely agree. Just because you paid money for it, DOES NOT, make it yours. If the original owner filed a police report and documented the serial number, or had any sort of evidence that the gun was in fact his/hers, than by keeping it, the person would be in possession of stolen property. All the proof of knowledge (knowing you possessed stolen property) that it was stolen is right here in these threads.

I have heard of cases where an Escalade was sold to an individual with the license plate and vin changed. The 2nd owner went to trade in the vehicle and the dealer discovered it was reported stolen because the hidden vin numbers were still there.

The end result was the car was siezed by law enforcement and the 2nd owner who bought it for 60k or more was out the money. The original owner ends up getting their vehicle back. No charges were filed on the 2nd owner because knowledge that the vehicle was stolen could not be proven.

One main difference and why cars are not a great example to compare to a stolen airgun is the fact that there serial numbers are not recorded with the govt like a vehicle's. Sure the manufacturer or seller may have a copy of it, but that isn't the same.

For those who live in California, you can look up (google) Calcrim (what ever penal code) you wish to get specific jury instructions on what is required to convict someone. For instance Calcrim pc211 (robbery).

Other states will have something similar and their laws may vary widely in the realm of what constitutes a felony or misdemeanor. However, certain penal code definitions may also share some resemblences.

 

[cjtamu]

I completely agree. Just because you paid money for it, DOES NOT, make it yours. If the original owner filed a police report and documented the serial number, or had any sort of evidence that the gun was in fact his/hers, than by keeping it, the person would be in possession of stolen property. All the proof of knowledge (knowing you possessed stolen property) that it was stolen is right here in these threads.

Nope. What makes it his is the fact that, as he’s stated previously, the original owner has told him to keep it now that it’s been recovered. That makes it a gift. Hopefully he gets money back from eBay and can make original owner whole. If reports were filed with PD I’d make sure they know it was recovered.

 

[_walter_]

I completely agree. Just because you paid money for it, DOES NOT, make it yours. If the original owner filed a police report and documented the serial number, or had any sort of evidence that the gun was in fact his/hers, than by keeping it, the person would be in possession of stolen property. All the proof of knowledge (knowing you possessed stolen property) that it was stolen is right here in these threads.

I have heard of cases where an Escalade was sold to an individual with the license plate and vin changed. The 2nd owner went to trade in the vehicle and the dealer discovered it was reported stolen because the hidden vin numbers were still there.

The end result was the car was siezed by law enforcement and the 2nd owner who bought it for 60k or more was out the money. The original owner ends up getting their vehicle back. No charges were filed on the 2nd owner because knowledge that the vehicle was stolen could not be proven.

One main difference and why cars are not a great example to compare to a stolen airgun is the fact that there serial numbers are not recorded with the govt like a vehicle's. Sure the manufacturer or seller may have a copy of it, but that isn't the same.

For those who live in California, you can look up (google) Calcrim (what ever penal code) you wish to get specific jury instructions on what is required to convict someone. For instance Calcrim pc211 (robbery).

Other states will have something similar and their laws may vary widely in the realm of what constitutes a felony or misdemeanor. However, certain penal code definitions may also share some resemblences.

I knew this guy was from CA

 

[Richieg]

You might want to check pirate rules concerning airgun/ insurance. Probably not covered when using a discount shipping party - FedEx although twice the amount is golden.

FedEx GOLDEN????I had a table delivered to me by FedEx with the corner broken and hanging outside the box. I was there when the driver dropped it off, I told him I refused delivery because it was broke. He threw it down and said make a claim, all he was paid to do was deliver it. FedEx was worthless in trying to file a claim, the manufacturer of the table sent me another one. THAT one made it in 1 piece.

 

[cavedweller]

I completely agree. Just because you paid money for it, DOES NOT, make it yours. If the original owner filed a police report and documented the serial number, or had any sort of evidence that the gun was in fact his/hers, than by keeping it, the person would be in possession of stolen property. All the proof of knowledge (knowing you possessed stolen property) that it was stolen is right here in these threads.

I have heard of cases where an Escalade was sold to an individual with the license plate and vin changed. The 2nd owner went to trade in the vehicle and the dealer discovered it was reported stolen because the hidden vin numbers were still there.

The end result was the car was siezed by law enforcement and the 2nd owner who bought it for 60k or more was out the money. The original owner ends up getting their vehicle back. No charges were filed on the 2nd owner because knowledge that the vehicle was stolen could not be proven.

One main difference and why cars are not a great example to compare to a stolen airgun is the fact that there serial numbers are not recorded with the govt like a vehicle's. Sure the manufacturer or seller may have a copy of it, but that isn't the same.

For those who live in California, you can look up (google) Calcrim (what ever penal code) you wish to get specific jury instructions on what is required to convict someone. For instance Calcrim pc211 (robbery).

Other states will have something similar and their laws may vary widely in the realm of what constitutes a felony or misdemeanor. However, certain penal code definitions may also share some resemblences.

TWO big problems in this particular situation was A) no claim was filed against the carrier and B) no police report filed either. The lack of proper package contents I.D. and no insurance basically lead the seller to understand financial recovery would be impossible. Those same issues may affect eBay and PayPal decisions on this issue as well; except that a record of our specific financial transaction and refund with PayPal dates back to the Aug/Sept 2022 time of loss... 3 days left in this process?

 

[Squack]

I've dealt with theft a few times, and my faith in law enforcement is low.
They have the option to enforce the law or not. But they can gather evidence and statements which have legal grounds.
The last time was an out of State stolen check (thought to be friend, coworker). I was told the Bank would only seek restitution, but I should contact the prosecutor in the city the crime was committed and see if they would pick up the case. They direct law enforcement on how to proceed or not to... hint.

 

[cavedweller]

@7Green
I've dealt with theft a few times, and my faith in law enforcement is low.
They have the option to enforce the law or not. But they can gather evidence and statements which have legal grounds.
The last time was an out of State stolen check (thought to be friend, coworker). I was told the Bank would only seek restitution, but I should contact the prosecutor in the city the crime was committed and see if they would pick up the case. They direct law enforcement on how to proceed or not to... hint.

still waiting for perp to provide documentation....or not...but good idea.

 

[7Green]

I've dealt with theft a few times, and my faith in law enforcement is low.
They have the option to enforce the law or not. But they can gather evidence and statements which have legal grounds.
The last time was an out of State stolen check (thought to be friend, coworker). I was told the Bank would only seek restitution, but I should contact the prosecutor in the city the crime was committed and see if they would pick up the case. They direct law enforcement on how to proceed or not to... hint.

I understand your frustration, but I can assure you the problems lay far deeper. It is simple for a person to lay blame on law enforcement. In fact, it is the easiest thing to do. The real issue lays with the legislature and the laws they create, along with the public(s) misunderstanding of those laws and what some of those laws are actually doing. In the United States (we the people) are in essence the govt. I will end it there because I don't want to go political and jump off of the op.

With your statements about discretion; that is true to a certain degree and yes we all know there are bad or lazy cops out there, just like every other profession. However, there are also dept. policies about how some investigations must be conducted and/or reported.

With regard to check fraud. The real victim in the case is typically the bank since they more than likely reimbursed your friend. This doesn't mean charges couldn't be filed if the identity of the supect can be proven. Figuring out who the suspect is often a huge issue. One of the most frequent issues law enforcement faces in these types of cases actually lies with the victim's believe it or not. (Let me explain)

Checks and/or credit cards frequently get stolen and are used to obtain cash or make fraudulent purchases like gift cards at Target. When the victim reports the theft to law enforcement, they need certain documentation to get the investigation going. Some of this can be time sensitive because banks and businesses only hold data/video for so long.

Law enforement needs:
-Bank(s) names
- associated accounts with acct #(s)
-associated credit card types and #'s
-bank statements showing the fraud
-specific times and places the card or check was cashed so they can obtain transaction info from the business.

Without this, a warrant would need to be written for the bank(s) associated with the fraudulant transactions. This is far more difficult and it may take months to receive any info from the bank(s). As a result, any footage from say Target may be lost by the time the info was received. Even worse could be if it was an online transaction out of the country.

Secondly, just because law enforcement receives surveillance footage does not mean identification can or will ever be made. It could be due to the quality of the cameras, clothing like facemasks, etc....

With regards to jurisdictional issues. Unless there is a federal crime of great magnitude, the county and state where the crime was committed is often who investigates it. I can't speak for all states as I only reside in Ca. There is simply way to many cases of fraud, theft, possessing stolen property out there and agencies can become over whelmed to the point that they may not even do much of an investigation if there is not solid evidence and far worse crimes occurring in their jurisdiction. Further, a lot of this could also be attributed to uncooperative victim(s) who fail to provide any of the above mentioned documention after the initial report was filed.

If you would like to PM me with more specific questions, I would be glad to assist anyone with increasing their knowledge. I just hope you can trust me when I say it isn't always law enforcements fault on why nothing happened with a case. As mentioned earlier, beyond a reasonable doubt is what the prosecution must prove to convict. What is sad is cases often get thrown out due to a juror or two not finding guilt, even with solid evidence.

A prime example is with people driving under the influence of marijuana, which is practically legal in Ca now. Well; How many jurors use weed and drive? You can see how this can present an issue because of one's beliefs and experiences.

 

[7Green]

Please Pm me if anyone has any further questions or comments regarding any of my posts.

To the Op and the original owner. I hope everything works out to your satisfaction and the scumbag does time.

 

[Squack]

When you call you local and State police and are told it's a civil matter only to get a lawyer and go to court and hear the Judge say it's theft and the man should have been arrested. Yeah, I'm a bit bitter with the system.
That's the day I learned they have the option to enforce the law.