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Resources Tirrell/Thomas Death Star

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To All in this Thread:
This discussion - while being somewhat contentious at times, is very good for understanding the different perspectives in Airgun Shooting.
Good Job AGN (y).



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thomasair said:
Cole…big field target matches shoot 3 days over 3 courses. GP’s are over 2 days and 2 courses. It’s not very often that the same shooter wins each day. They don’t recognize the shooter that had a good match on Friday but blew it on Saturday and Sunday. But as you know…FT isn’t BR.

I don’t mind others enjoying whatever they want to do…but don’t call it benchrest if it’s not. That name has already been taken for a very specific sport that’s been going on a really, really long time. Simply shooting from a bench doesn’t mean you’re shooting benchrest.

Mike
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Benchrest by definition is shot off a bench...measured by group size where originally brought your own board target and pegs to put in your bullet holes to be measured with a string around them. Shortest string won.










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You have to shoot aggregate 25m or 50yd to truly understand how difficult it is to shoot a perfect card or card’s outdoors in conditions. The skill level is phenomenal and there is no “luck” involved!. You have to trust and fully understand your equipment and interpret what your flag’s are telling you. I personally will never be at that level, but I do have persistence and will always strive for that perfect card, fortunately for me and others we have a great wealth of knowledge on this BENCHREST forum, all we have to do is ask!
 
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Troy Bakel said:
My, my, my, all this because I had an orgasm shooting the Deathstar.

Time for a reality check - The purist form of S&M is when a masochist asks her sadist to hurt her and he softly wispers in her ear "No".
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Just so you know.....FW Mann is considered the father of rifle accuracy. In his book is a letter to a fellow shooter making a statement few understand but brutally true.
"If the haphazard guesswork and old notions of the ordinary rifleman are going to be adhered to in spite of cold facts and indisputable scientific experiments, then progress along the line of truth will indeed be slow."

Dr.FW Mann
Milford Mass. 1901
 
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Shadowalker said:
Gentlemen, I have seen this discussion in CF. RF and now Airgun all of which I have participated in as a serious competitor for over 50 yrs.
You people are hell bent on killing the horse you ride
. What you fail to understand are we that seek the Grail and design, build and shoot these Deathstar guns are your testing facility. We find out what really works and does not as we now have built a gun that has the fewest possible flaws in design and building as knowledge permits. The information derived from shooting such a Deathstar rig within a controlled atmosphere provides more accurate info in one day than 4 years of your outside pellet flinging in the wind. They define cause and effect..
So they are perfectionists. They have to be to provide valid facts. Be thankful they exist. They are providing you with the most accurate information available in your chosen sport and your complaining?
No company does this for you. These guns have their own competition and are no threat to you..They advance the sport.... I said this years ago as I migrated from rimfire benchrest to Airguns and those within this sport were complaining because I arrived.."If smart you will adopt these benchrest methods and findings or get beat by those that do". Without MIKE in your sport you would be both flat lined in knowledge and progress. Look how stagnant the sport was before his brain fart and benchrest shooters entered into this sport. World records have been broken and set. The Internation target never shot clean in 40 years of European competition was shattered in the Carolinas. This is called progress and makes manufactures to start paying attention to detail.
This single man has done more to advance this sport than any man or company in over 50 years. Pay respect and be greatful for the gift.
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Wait a minute.....I thought you purists were saying RMAC/EBR weren't even the same thing.....your response doesn't jive with that mindset.

As far as paying respect, that's a two way street. Whichever stance a guy takes about RMAC/EBR being "true" benchrest or not, nobody can argue that big airgunning events like these have done a lot to advance airguns, both in their popularity and in technology. And yes, since they're sponsored events, that has been driven in large part by the manufacturer, b/c they're gunning for more sales.....hang on a second!!! Maybe the two aren't that much different after all!!!!

So again, paying respect is a two way street. Mike has done for pure benchrest what the big competitions have done for the popularity of airguns in general. Crapping on either of them to put down the other helps noone.


And no, that's not an insult, just the facts of the matter.

(Yes, Mikes results with Thomas devices on paper are superior to any other air powered projectile launching device. And yes he's the most tenacious and obsessed purist to ever get involved in "true benchrest." I'm in complete agreement with him that what's he's doing, and what he's using to do it, are not even in the same category as what goes on at one of the popular airgun competitions.)
 
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Ebr and RMAC have the trappings of a real benchrest match…but omit all the important ones like bench parity, multiple cards, proper protest peocedure, and complete transparency. No wailing wall, no protesting other people’s cards….etc. The 50 is an abomination of proper procedure with its assigned benches and time slots.

It’s pretendrest based on match format alone. The fact that the attendees don’t seem to mind is not proof that it’s a legitimate format, but that the attendees are mostly there for fun. Fun shoots are fun, I guess…and they are very popular. If you get dressed up in your matching team outfits, despite there being no team categories whatsoever….you’re can really play make believe.

The offense is that it continually gets referred to as real benchrest by folks that don’t know the difference and those that need to identify as real benchrest shooters…..despite eschewing the main principles of benchrest. I’m absolutely certain that was the goal of its founder.

That’s the bottom line, and that’s why it’s annoying to the real sport of benchrest. It absolutely cheapens something that has been the pinnacle of accuracy demonstration for decades and decades.

Mike
 
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Well, after digesting this thread, Mike frankly believes RMAC/EBR are a sloppy version of precision -> relative to what he's doing.

However, at Marketing Events like RMAC/EBR, the goal in "The Benchrest Competition" is to entertain while retaining the most precision possible in it's limited time space. There is just no time for the Benchrest Competition (one of many at the Events) to shoot 3-6 cards with so many competitors.

While Mike seeks "The Holygrail", RMAC/EBR Benchrest competitors/Manufactures seek a glimpse of IT in real time.

Mike blazes the path to follow, while RMAC/EBR embrace the practical/business pursuit most folks can follow with their limited time.

Each feeds the other, while Mike is likely happy for the additional SALES these Marketing Events have shinned the light on his "Thomas" airgun too.
 
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Centercut said:
Interesting. When one reads the comments from the real-rest people about the “pretenderest” people, they would have you believe it’s one or the other. When the fact is that couldn’t be further from the truth.

There are shooters at the WRABF this week that shoot both, and have fun competing in both formats. There will be shooters at the N50 “Nationals” that shoot both. There have been World BR Champions that have shot at RMAC. 25M WRABF World Champion Hein Frommann shot at RMAC 2022 and finished 2nd in the finals.

To “assume” that if one “lowers” himself to shoot at EBR or RMAC, he can’t possibly be a REAL BR shooter is just silly, insulting, and frankly not true…. It’s not “slumming” if a “REAL” BR shooter competes at EBR or RMAC. But if it makes the real-rest people happy to talk like that then more power to them.
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MB, It's getting ugly; please don't scare the pooch...

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Wouldn’t it make sense to combine the three card scores to crown a winner instead of a winner take all final single card score? CC, I believe you come from a golf background and Sunday’s winner isn’t based on just Sunday’s score alone but instead Sunday’s winner is a cumulative score over the last 4 days, right? Why wouldn’t EBR, PAC, RMAC and others follow suit with a similar additive scoring format? ARA and N50 use a cumulative scoring format and I am sure there are other shooting matches that use similar scoring as well.
 
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C'mon, y'all are adults (or at least 18 yoa). Please refresh yourselves with our primary rule and quit Reporting each other for petty stuff.

1. Exercise common sense and be considerate towards your fellow users. The diversity of opinion and intelligent civil discourse is encouraged; by the same token: rude, lewd, vulgar, obscene, flaming, baiting, trolling, hateful, threatening, insulting, violent, or slanderous content will not be tolerated. You may challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully.

Thanks
 
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igolfat8 said:
Wouldn’t it make sense to combine the three card scores to crown a winner instead of a winner take all final single card score? CC, I believe you come from a golf background and Sunday’s winner isn’t based on just Sunday’s score alone but instead Sunday’s winner is a cumulative score over the last 4 days, right? Why wouldn’t EBR, PAC, RMAC and others follow suit with a similar additive scoring format? ARA and N50 use a cumulative scoring format and I am sure there are other shooting matches that use similar scoring as well.
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Of course it would if the primary goal was to find the best shooters and rank them by ability….doing your best to remove as much chance as possible. This is in fact the goal of sanctioned benchrest events. Serious benchrest shooters don’t want chance….but chance makes things more interesting and more fun for the less serious.

Mike
 
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Michael said:
C'mon, y'all are adults (or at least 18 yoa). Please refresh yourselves with our primary rule and quit Reporting each other for petty stuff.

1. Exercise common sense and be considerate towards your fellow users. The diversity of opinion and intelligent civil discourse is encouraged; by the same token: rude, lewd, vulgar, obscene, flaming, baiting, trolling, hateful, threatening, insulting, violent, or slanderous content will not be tolerated. You may challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully.

Thanks
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Sounds great until translated into American which yields "equal" as "identical" and "liberty" as the "freedom to inflict one's self righteousness on the non-identical with total disregard to their ( non-identical) pursuit of happiness."
 
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Wow, this is what I get for going fishing out of WiFi range for a few days.
Wow, someone complained to the admins about this thread?
Wow, heated discussions over OPs positive experience shooting a precision instrument leading to AG advancements?
Does daystate & others know electric triggers should not be allowed?
I often wonder why appropriating the name “Benchrest” is so dog-gone important.
 
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